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And your point is? When there are death squads and mass graves being deployed in your country by a top 10 global military power you use the resources you can ge

And your point is? When there are death squads and mass graves being deployed in your country by a top 10 global military power you use the resources you can get. If Russia invaded my country and was executing civilians and burying them in mass graves you bet I would also be working with anyone I could to stop them. Churchill - If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.

lisasays 3y ago
And your point is? To the extent that there is any - it's that it's awfully negligent (on the part of Brussels), and stupid (of Kyiv) to be handing the enemy such a picture-perfect propaganda play. In fact, just about the shrillest of optics and meme fodder that Putin's sycophants could ever wish for, in their wettest and wildest of dreams: "Actual Nazis, with NATO weapons, crossing into the Motherland!" What's your point?
- moose_man 3y ago
  I mean sure, the situation isn't ideal, but being invaded by Russia isn't either. Besides, who knows if it is worth trade off? Maybe it will force Russia to deploy more forces to guard their borders and leave open opportunities for the counter offensive that wouldn't otherwise happen. We can't say yet whether it is a stupid move until it plays out.
  - lisasays 3y ago
    I mean sure, the situation isn't ideal, but so is being invaded by Russia. The thing is, this exactly the logic that moved so many people in so many European countries (including, very close to the front of the pack, Ukraine itself) to seek either full or partial alliance with the German occupiers in the first place, back during that other conflict (which supposedly never really ended, according to what Putin is desperately trying to tell the world). That, and again, the shitty optics and (unfortunately quite) tangible propaganda benefit for the other side.
    - moose_man 3y ago
      A handful of Russian right wingers larping as Nazis is not equivalent to the threat of Nazi Germany. Besides, the Russian occupation forces are doing a far more realistic and faithful impression of the SD / Waffen SS themselves with all the mass graves, torture and forced disappearances. They even have the deportation thing down as well.
      - lisasays 3y ago
        A handful of Russian right wingers larping as Nazis is not equivalent to the threat of Nazi Germany. Look, it's objectively stupid and inflammatory, in any conflict, to not just send people over the border to do whatever business you want them to do -- but to send people with either (1) highly questionable ties (2) doing stupid provocative shit, and (3) at the same time when you're attempting to claim plausible deniability - using the wrong weapons. Examples abound in recent and less-recent history. And it doesn't matter how small they are in terms of headcount. The bottom line is that it (at best) works against your stated goals, and at worst - can counteract these goals entirely. Besides, the Russian occupation forces are doing a far more realistic and faithful impression of the SD / Waffen SS themselves with all the mass graves, torture and forced disappearances. Damn right they are. But rather then do something to stop that - these tactics simply enable them to brainwash their own public further, and convince them of the "regrettable necessity" of the special operation which they ... keep insisting they were forced to undertake.
        moose_man 3y ago
        I get your concern, maybe it will end up being a bad move, who knows. Sometimes people screw up. But frankly this worries me a lot more than whatever methods the Ukrainians use for shaping attacks in advance of their offensive: https://meduza.io/en/news/2023/06/04/two-year-old-girl-killed-in-russian-strike-on-dnipropetrovsk-found-in-the-rubble-of-a-ruined-building https://meduza.io/en/news/2023/06/04/two-year-old-girl-kille...
        lisasays 3y ago
gdy 3y ago
"you bet I would also be working with anyone I could to stop them" I suggest you watch this BBC report[0] on torch march in Kiev on Jan 2 2014 when Crimea was still Ukrainian. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHhGEiwCHZE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHhGEiwCHZE
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  Lots of people would work with anyone to drive out invaders that where raping and torturing there way across there land. You don't have to like people for them to be useful too you. Like how Russias main PMC is run by a Nazi, but it doesn't make all Russians Nazi's does it?.
  - gdy 3y ago
    You pretended that 'Jan 2 2014' isn't there.
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      Whats your point, theres similar marches in Russia too, does that make all of them Nazis?.
      - gdy 3y ago
        "Whats your point" My point is that Nazis in the Ukraine isn't a new thing and you can't justify their position in the Ukrainian society by the ongoing war. They freely marched with torches on the streets of Kiev before anything happened. "theres similar marches in Russia too" Not really, Russian ultra-nationalists are suppressed under Putin, some of their leaders are in jail and their organizations are designated as extremist. There were so called Russian Marches, but no more. "does that make all of them Nazis" Yeah, people marching on the streets with torches and shouting nationalistic and supremacist slogans are nazis, be it in Russia or Ukraine. Doubly so if they carry the portraits of Nazi collaborators and perpetrators of genocide. Slogans 'Ukraine above all' don't help either.

lisasays 3y ago

And your point is? To the extent that there is any - it's that it's awfully negligent (on the part of Brussels), and stupid (of Kyiv) to be handing the enemy such a picture-perfect propaganda play. In fact, just about the shrillest of optics and meme fodder that Putin's sycophants could ever wish for, in their wettest and wildest of dreams: "Actual Nazis, with NATO weapons, crossing into the Motherland!" What's your point?

moose_man 3y ago
I mean sure, the situation isn't ideal, but being invaded by Russia isn't either. Besides, who knows if it is worth trade off? Maybe it will force Russia to deploy more forces to guard their borders and leave open opportunities for the counter offensive that wouldn't otherwise happen. We can't say yet whether it is a stupid move until it plays out.
- lisasays 3y ago
  I mean sure, the situation isn't ideal, but so is being invaded by Russia. The thing is, this exactly the logic that moved so many people in so many European countries (including, very close to the front of the pack, Ukraine itself) to seek either full or partial alliance with the German occupiers in the first place, back during that other conflict (which supposedly never really ended, according to what Putin is desperately trying to tell the world). That, and again, the shitty optics and (unfortunately quite) tangible propaganda benefit for the other side.
  - moose_man 3y ago
    A handful of Russian right wingers larping as Nazis is not equivalent to the threat of Nazi Germany. Besides, the Russian occupation forces are doing a far more realistic and faithful impression of the SD / Waffen SS themselves with all the mass graves, torture and forced disappearances. They even have the deportation thing down as well.
    - lisasays 3y ago
      A handful of Russian right wingers larping as Nazis is not equivalent to the threat of Nazi Germany. Look, it's objectively stupid and inflammatory, in any conflict, to not just send people over the border to do whatever business you want them to do -- but to send people with either (1) highly questionable ties (2) doing stupid provocative shit, and (3) at the same time when you're attempting to claim plausible deniability - using the wrong weapons. Examples abound in recent and less-recent history. And it doesn't matter how small they are in terms of headcount. The bottom line is that it (at best) works against your stated goals, and at worst - can counteract these goals entirely. Besides, the Russian occupation forces are doing a far more realistic and faithful impression of the SD / Waffen SS themselves with all the mass graves, torture and forced disappearances. Damn right they are. But rather then do something to stop that - these tactics simply enable them to brainwash their own public further, and convince them of the "regrettable necessity" of the special operation which they ... keep insisting they were forced to undertake.
      - moose_man 3y ago
        I get your concern, maybe it will end up being a bad move, who knows. Sometimes people screw up. But frankly this worries me a lot more than whatever methods the Ukrainians use for shaping attacks in advance of their offensive: https://meduza.io/en/news/2023/06/04/two-year-old-girl-killed-in-russian-strike-on-dnipropetrovsk-found-in-the-rubble-of-a-ruined-building https://meduza.io/en/news/2023/06/04/two-year-old-girl-kille...
        lisasays 3y ago

gdy 3y ago

"you bet I would also be working with anyone I could to stop them" I suggest you watch this BBC report[0] on torch march in Kiev on Jan 2 2014 when Crimea was still Ukrainian. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHhGEiwCHZE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHhGEiwCHZE

_kbh_ 3y ago
Lots of people would work with anyone to drive out invaders that where raping and torturing there way across there land. You don't have to like people for them to be useful too you. Like how Russias main PMC is run by a Nazi, but it doesn't make all Russians Nazi's does it?.
- gdy 3y ago
  You pretended that 'Jan 2 2014' isn't there.
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    Whats your point, theres similar marches in Russia too, does that make all of them Nazis?.
    - gdy 3y ago
      "Whats your point" My point is that Nazis in the Ukraine isn't a new thing and you can't justify their position in the Ukrainian society by the ongoing war. They freely marched with torches on the streets of Kiev before anything happened. "theres similar marches in Russia too" Not really, Russian ultra-nationalists are suppressed under Putin, some of their leaders are in jail and their organizations are designated as extremist. There were so called Russian Marches, but no more. "does that make all of them Nazis" Yeah, people marching on the streets with torches and shouting nationalistic and supremacist slogans are nazis, be it in Russia or Ukraine. Doubly so if they carry the portraits of Nazi collaborators and perpetrators of genocide. Slogans 'Ukraine above all' don't help either.