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"It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

• jamesaguilar 15y ago
  It seems like it's an inherent in this sort of battery. I'm not sure what Tesla could do to offset this. Computer makers mostly don't offer warranties in the case of negligence or intentional damage. The same seems to apply here.
  • rapind 15y ago
    We're much more accepting of computer and software bugs than vehicle bugs. This, if true, will turn into a PR nightmare for them very fast.
    • nknight 15y ago
      It's not a bug, it's an inherent technological limitation.
      • pbreit 15y ago
        No it's not. There are a variety of ways to engineer around this property of the batteries.
        • nknight 15y ago
          Then perhaps you'd care to share one? Or maybe just start cranking out magic batteries and become uber-wealthy? Since you haven't done that, I find it more likely you have no clue what you're talking about.
          • aidenn0 15y ago
            Here's one: Rather than brick the battery, if it is parked and below a certain level, release a normally open relay that completely disconnects the BMS from the cells. Recovering from this state would require special charging and recalibrating of the BMS (possibly done at a shop) but it would be better than bricking the pack.
            • aidenn0 15y ago
              Here's one: Rather than brick the battery, if it is parked and below a certain level, release a normally open relay that completely disconnects the BMS from the cells. Recovering from this state would require special charging and recalibrating of the BMS (possibly done at a shop) but it would be better than bricking the pack.
            • nknight 15y ago
              Disconnecting the BMS does not eliminate self-discharge, only the parasitic load. Draining your batteries to the point of being functionally dead, and then leaving them in that state for an extended period, will still "brick" them just as badly.
          • pbreit 15y ago
            Here are 4: switch, backup battery, mini engine, solar panel.
            • nknight 15y ago
              Switch does not solve the problem, "backup battery"? You're just delaying the inevitable, why not just demand that they make the batteries bigger in the first place? What good does a "mini engine" do? You can't turn it on automatically, that's an enormous safety risk and would never make it past insurers or the government, and it can only last as long as its fuel holds out, again you're just delaying the inevitable. Solar panels don't help if you're parked in a garage, which is where most people park their fancy roadsters, and they'd have to be huge to maintain the charge anyway. And absolutely none of this contradicts my original point: It's a technological limitation. This is how batteries work. You're not proposing a solution, you're proposing unworkable band-aids.
              • pbreit 15y ago
                Nothing is ever solved completely, only satisfactorily.
    • jamesaguilar 15y ago
      It's a bug in the same sense that internal combustion engines will begin to have problems if their motor oil is not changed. It's inherent to this kind of battery.
• powertower 15y ago
  What's the issue with the battery tech that makes it not chargable after a full discharge?
  • fleitz 15y ago
    It's inherent to any lithium ion battery design which is why every laptop, iphone, etc that uses a lithium ion battery has circuitry that cuts power when the batter reaches 1% to 5% it can occur in your laptop if you discharge the battery entirely and then leave your battery uncharged for months (or less if stored cold). Some kind of chemical change occurs in Li batteries when completely discharged.
    • sounds 15y ago
      Good answer. In case anyone wants more detail, wikipedia is a little vague, but has the basic idea right: "Overdischarge supersaturates lithium cobalt oxide, leading to the production of lithium oxide...deep discharge may short-circuit the cell, in which case recharging would be unsafe." and "Overcharge up to 5.2 Volts leads to the synthesis of cobalt(IV) oxide...if overheated or overcharged, Li-ion batteries may suffer thermal runaway and cell rupture. In extreme cases this can lead to combustion." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery The possibilitiy of thermal runaway or fire from overcharging is actually fairly likely with Li+ ions, since they will react with any non-inert substance. The short circuit caused by undercharging can affect other cells in the pack, leading to overheating and combustion.
    • throwaway64 15y ago
      storing hot is what is detremental to lithium batteries, storing them cold increases lifetime
      • jambalaya 15y ago
        Should I store batteries I don't use in the fridge or freezer? I have a backup laptop battery for instance.
• fleitz 15y ago
  Every laptop that uses a lithium ion battery should have this problem. Oddly enough every laptop manufacture has included circuitry that cuts battery power when it reaches 5% (when the OS reports 0% it's actually ~1-5%). Tesla should have no problem fixing this, the onboard electronics will die anyway when the battery dies so why not have them die a few hours earlier and allow 'recovery' by charging the vehicle.
  • modeless 15y ago
    Batteries self-discharge, even when disconnected. 5% is probably not enough to last months, especially if the car is exposed to high temperatures.
    • pkulak 15y ago
      So will my laptop "brick" also if I don't plug it in for a couple weeks?
      • modeless 15y ago
        Yes. If you completely discharge your laptop and then stick it in a closet for a couple of months without charging it, the battery will likely be completely unrecoverable. The exact amount of time it takes will depend on the battery of course (and the ambient temperature).
      • maaku 15y ago
        Yes, and I've done that. Took longer than a couple of weeks though. Brand new battery in a MacBook that discharged then went in storage for a while (a half-year I think). The next time I opened it the battery was completely dead and wouldn't hold a charge.
      • theDaveB 15y ago
        I left my MacBook on but the lid closed and went on a weeks holiday (not sure how much charge the battery had) when I come back it was dead and now will not take a charge. As its £90 for a new one, I just leave it plugged into the wall now. Dave
• noonespecial 15y ago
  Could this really not be prevented by a $10 microcontroller and a big-ass relay to just disconnect the battery if it reaches a certain discharge state? Even my iPhone can turn turtle to protect its battery when it gets too low. Also how much power does it take to keep the damn thing plugged in? The article indicates that a 100 foot extension cord isn't enough just to break even and the car discharges even when plugged in. A 100 foot cord of cheap 16 gauge wire can still supply almost 900 watts before the voltage drops below 100v. So it uses a kilowatt just to stand-by without even charging? That's one hell of a power vampire. I think maybe they should spend a bit more time on the fundamentals and a bit less time on fancy bird-wing doors if they want to have a real product. The real car of the future is just a big dumb tray full of indestructible nickle-iron batteries and 4 wheel-hub motors bolted to the corners.
  • bradleyland 15y ago
    The account of the Tesla discharging while plugged in to a 100-foot extension cord strikes me as suspect. It's anecdotal at best. Have a look at the Tesla Roadster "Charging" page: http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric/charging http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric/charging Using 120V @ 15A, you get a charge rate of +5 miles (of range) per hour. Obviously not the optimal solution, but not a net negative either. Adding a 100 foot extension cord isn't going to diminish the available current enough to result in a net negative, so either the owner had additional electrical issues, or simply failed to plug it in and is making up excuses.
    • nash 15y ago
      I would agree. The whole document has a few little niggles that make me think it's BS, or at least severely overblown. Additionally they quote it's happened 5 times... by an un-named service manager.
      • geori 15y ago
        Totally Agree. There are no names, only anecdotes and the science is suspect. This article is 100% B.S. and I wouldn't be surprised if it was planted by a competitor.
• newman314 15y ago
  "In at least one case, Tesla went even further. The Tesla service manager admitted that, unable to contact an owner by phone, Tesla remotely activated a dying vehicle’s GPS to determine its location and then dispatched Tesla staff to go there. It is not clear if Tesla had obtained this owner’s consent to allow this tracking5, or if the owner is even aware that his vehicle had been tracked. Further, the service manager acknowledged that this use of tracking was not something they generally tell customers about." -- That screams class-action to me if Tesla can really track without knowledge of the owner AND will mean that I have absolutely zero interest in purchasing one till this is addressed.
  • dusing 15y ago
    Yeah Tesla saved the guy 40k, how rude
    • jklp 15y ago
      I think it was more the fact that Tesla didn't tell their customers they had GPS tracking equipment fitted to their vehicles. If a service manager could access the location information I'd imagine quite a few other staff at Tesla could too ...
      • Geee 15y ago
        I'm pretty sure they have been open about this. At least I remember reading this somewhere on their website. I think it was part of their 'product testing' program or something, where you would allow Tesla to track everything to gather data for their purposes to make the car better.
    • deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
      • chrisbennet 15y ago
        You were probably downvoted because you didn't read the article.
• cli 15y ago
  Why can't the wheels turn after the battery dies?
  • sounds 15y ago
    The article explains that it doesn't have power to turn on "tow mode" - so the wheels remain engaged to the now dead electrical system, effectively locking them in place.
    • sbalea 15y ago
      Why can't you plug the car in, and switch on tow mode? Even a laptop with a dead battery works fine when plugged in. I'd venture to say that a tow truck's alternator should be enough to disengage the wheels. Sorry, but this is just crappy engineering.
      • Arelius 15y ago
        Unlike a laptop, the Tesla was never designed to be run while plugged in. Combined with the fact that they arent designed to hit zero battery. This is an easy oversight of design, where the laptop can run directly off of wall power not due to fix the problem of a dead battery, but to provide less stress on the battery while being used and plugged in. A usage case that does not exist under normal usage of a tesla. Additionally. Do we know that it is actually impossible to engage tow mode while plugged in? That still doesn't solve all cases of having to manually move it.
        • moe 15y ago
          Unlike a laptop, the Tesla was never designed to be run while plugged in. Which is actually an amusing thought. Perhaps they could ship them with really long extension chords, just enough for a city-commute...
          • jambalaya 15y ago
            How about a driving around a generator :p It would be cool though to have wireless power from beneath the road or something.
• p0ss 15y ago
  I would like to see Tesla's response to this. I was going to pre-order a model X, i won't be now, until I know I won't be tracked and the car won't brick itself.
• ghshephard 15y ago
  I've bricked a number of MacBook Pro batteries this way but (A) Scale is obviously different - only $100, and (B) Genius Bar came to the rescue - even though it really was my fault, they covered it under warranty.
  • tmeasday 15y ago
    Yeah, I've been told it falls under the standard AppleCare warranty if this happens to anyone. (Likewise with fraying of charger cords). Personally, I don't see why it's "your fault". I've seen it happen many times, all you need to do is let your computer drain completely and leave it for a few days (not months as some people have stated in this post). Although I'm sure it says something about it in the manual somewhere, it's hardly common knowledge that this is something you need to be careful of.
• mcot2 15y ago
  I'm much more in favor of hundreds of millions of govt money going towards 50-100MPG+ electric/gas hybrids than all electric at this point. Limited range, hard to "refuel", and now the very real possibility of bricking. I think we are still a long long ways away from practical all electrics.
  • jlarocco 15y ago
    I'd prefer the government stay out of it all together. Producing vehicles isn't what the government is for. Second, using a 2500 pound car to transport a 150 pound person 15-20 miles to work every day is incredibly inefficient any way you look at it. If the government is going to be involved at all, it should be to promote walking, cycling, and public transportation. Researching more efficient cars is like trying to replace arsenic in drinking water with mercury - maybe it's not as bad, but it's still bad. Third, if people were serious about saving the environment and reducing pollution then they'd start living closer to the places they need to go, and stop driving so much altogether. They're not doing that, so I don't think the interest is there.
    • stretchwithme 15y ago
      We'd be far better off if government weren't subsidizing the automobile at all. Subsidizing mass transit to ameliorate the effects of subsidizing the automobile makes no sense. I don't think it needs to promote walking either. Most people are perfectly capable of understanding their own situations if we don't hide the costs and if they are allowed to learn from their own mistakes. It would be proper to tax things that have negative effects that aren't paid for, such as pollution.
      • rdl 15y ago
        The main government subsidy for efficient automakers that I'd like to see is a commitment to purchase certain numbers of vehicles for federal fleets if they meet specific performance goals (including price). Same thing with state/local (possibly with some federal subsidy of local purchases of more efficient vehicles). Ideally without specifying how to make them more efficient, just overall cost per expected miles/yr (which would probably give natural gas vehicles the best pricing right now).
• deleted 15y ago
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  • tibbon 15y ago
    I should be able to calculate this... but what's the resistance of that cord then? That's quite a voltage drop. EDIT: Wow, apparently this is pretty typical and expected as per this calculator: http://www.csgnetwork.com/voltagedropcalc.html http://www.csgnetwork.com/voltagedropcalc.html
  • jws 15y ago
    Elsewhere in the thread I calculate the life support draw at 29 watts from available data (53kWh battery, 11 weeks to idle to empty). I think you can afford the $100 if you have a Tesla.
  • Steko 15y ago
    "The article indicates that a 100 foot cord connected to a standard outlet does not provide enough power to prevent a Tesla car from discharging..." Pretty sure they say that to make sure people don't just use any old cord. A 24 AWG cord with 66% voltage drop as the low end would change your cost analysis radically.
    • ChuckMcM 15y ago
      You probably meant 4 AWG, a 100' of 24 AWG cord has about 2.5 ohms of resistance in it. Since power dissipation is exponential with current pulling even 2 amps through it would have the wire trying to dissipate 10 watts and that would represent 100mW/foot, easily enough to raise the temperature of the copper to the point where it would be too soft and break. [1] http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html
      • nitrogen 15y ago
        Since power dissipation is exponential with current Minor nitpick: power is proportional to the square of current (e.g. P=I^2), not exponentially proportional (which would be something like P=e^I).
• CatDaaaady 15y ago
  This is one concerning I would NOT want hanging over my head every time I left the car for an extended period of time :-\
• CatDaaaady 15y ago
  This is one concerning I would NOT want hanging over my head every time I left the car for an extended period of time :-\
• grannyg00se 15y ago
  This is akin to leaving the headlights on when the car is turned off in a regular car. You're asking for trouble. (though not to the tune of $40,000) When the car is turned off, there should be some kind of indication of how long it will take to brick the thing. If that indication is days rather than weeks, it should yell at you. Loudly. At least that way all owners will know of the threat. The car will educate them. (important, because they probably won't RTFM) Although I'm sure you could still end up with the odd user who leaves the car with a three week brick time, receives no loud warning because of the significant charge remaining , comes back five weeks later and curses Tesla.
  • tptacek 15y ago
    No, leaving the headlines on on your car is unlikely even to ruin your $100 car battery. You'll just need a jump start. The two situations are not at all comparable.
    • grannyg00se 15y ago
      They are comparable in that they both have to do with batteries and something you have to think about when you leave your car. In one case the consequences are much worse, but the general idea is the same. When you leave your car, you could mess up your battery if you aren't thinking.
• Aloha 15y ago
  I would point out that both the Model S and X may very well have the circuitry to completely disconnect the cell pack at something below 10% actual charge (not displayed charge). I'm also really wondering how much of this is self discharge, and how much of this is poor load control of the standby electronics.
• stretchwithme 15y ago
  Sounds like we got ourselves a great deal for the $400 million the government lent them. With many of these vehicles in California, I shudder to think how many might brick just because the grid gets broken by an earthquake.
• dlokshin 15y ago
  Kind of crazy that for the price of just a new battery, you could get a lower class Audi or BMW. Really put the overall "electric" technology in perspective for me.
  • MiguelHudnandez 15y ago
    For $30k, you could get a new Nissan Leaf with ~100 mile range, comparable to the Roadster. For this reason, I don't think your comparison is apt. But yes, $40k is a lot of money and there are many options--including electric drive.
• trotsky 15y ago
  Sure reads like a competitor isn't too pleased with their model s plans.
  • latch 15y ago
    Really? It reads to me like if the battery of a Tesla fully drains, you need to pay $40K to replace it.
  • agwa 15y ago
    This article didn't sit well with me either. All the examples were completely anecdotal, came from an anonymous source (a "regional service manager"), and there are no citations. Footnote 1 references a "written Tesla report" but that's hardly a citation. It may be that there is a real issue here, but I would like to see it corroborated by some actual evidence.
• aufreak3 15y ago
  The real solution to this problem would be for tesla to setup "anti-brick" charging stations, install google's self-drive system on their cars, and program them to drive themselves to the nearest station and charge themselves if there is a risk of bricking ;P
  • jambalaya 15y ago
    We need Tesla's wireless power charging ;)
• deleted 15y ago
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• URSpider94 15y ago
  A lot of people have picked at the "it won't charge through a 100-foot extension cord" statement. While I have no idea if this particular statement is true or not, it certainly wouldn't be unexpected behavior for a power management system. Modern charging and power conversion systems are designed to operate under specific use cases. When the Tesla charger first sees line voltage, it likely does some quick testing to see what kind of supply it's hooked up to, for example by trying to take 15 Amps and monitoring the line voltage. If the voltage sags too much, then it might back off to 12 Amps; after that, it probably just shuts off. The reason is that all of the AC/DC conversion circuitry is designed to operate with maximum efficiency at a certain input power; if the system can't deliver that power, then it's just going to shut down and assume that there's something wrong with the line. Note, this does not mean that the battery requires 1kW continuous power to stay charged. In plugged mode, the car will switch the charger on and off every few minutes (if it's at all like a laptop or phone) and draw down the battery ever so slightly in between. This is the most efficient way to operate, and is much better for the battery than constantly stuffing it with a trickle of current. If you want to see this in action on a consumer electronics scale, try plugging your iPad into the USB extension port on an iMac keyboard -- it will kindly let you know that it's not charging, and it will happily sit there and run its battery down to the cut-off point while plugged in.
  • noonespecial 15y ago
    This is a good point, but to use the iPad as an example, "not charging" actually does in most cases charge very slowly. It takes what it can and provided its in standby, this is usually enough to ever so slightly charge. In the on position, it will discharge more slowly than battery alone. The point is "optimal charge" or "complete destruction of the battery without warning" might not be the only two, or best choices available. "The best we can do with 500 watts" might be a better choice.
• rdl 15y ago
  If you leave a gasoline engine car unattended for a while, it becomes a brick, too -- you need to flush the fuel, replace the seals, etc. True, it takes more than 11 weeks, and you can usually put the transmission in neutral to tow it. This is a big problem, though. If anyone has a spare Tesla and would like someone to take care of it, I'd be happy to keep your car garaged and energized, and will only drive it 200 miles a week. :)
  • r0s 15y ago
    Don't forget the battery, leave a 'normal' battery through a few months and it's dead. What happens to a normal car once all the fuel is drained? Coolant? Oil? How did these design flaws make it out of engineering?!
    • pclark 15y ago
      You can comfortably leave a regular car alone for 6 months and when you return at worst the battery will be flat and there'll be some rust on the brake pads. I regularly do this to my poor old diesel SEAT. Even if the battery is flat I can either bump start it, or worst comes to worst, buy a new $50 battery.
      • rdl 15y ago
        Diesels are a fair bit more tolerant, and low end cars are actually much more robust than performance cars. Try leaving a dodge viper unattended for 6mo. I drove a diesel land cruiser (lm78) which had been sitting on an airfield unused for years. Aside from needing tires and a battery (and wiper blades) no problem. Even the fuel was ok.
  • pragmatic 15y ago
    "a while" is usually years not weeks. repair cost != $40,000 (again usually).
    • rdl 15y ago
      Yeah -- probably tires go first, and that still doesn't make it inoperative, just worse performance. And you could buy several new cars for the cost of the Tesla battery pack.
• kulpreet 15y ago
  While a lot of this accurate and something to consider, the author of this article fails to mention anything about Tesla's unique service/support model that they plan to roll out with the Model S. Tesla also mentions a "five-minute battery swap" available on their upcoming vehicles as well as "Tesla Rangers" that will come to your vehicle in the event that it dies. It seems to me like this is a small problem that the author is blowing out of proportion.
  • kalleboo 15y ago
    It seems this would be a small problem if Tesla informed their owners about it clearly (and adding a decent status display to the car to warn when it's not charging enough/how long until full battery depletion). As it seems now, Tesla owners are liable to the tune of $40K for doing something they don't know is bad.
• mbenjaminsmith 15y ago
  Why not just put in one or more normal car batteries to run idle systems and even act as a trickle charge when the car is turned off? Also, a car that smart should be able to alert you in some way.
• bickfordb 15y ago
  I find the Japan story really hard to believe: buying a $50K+ car and not bothering to buy an AC transformer to plug it in?
• jdietrich 15y ago
  Tesla are a sideshow and we desperately need to stop talking about them, because they're harming efforts to improve energy efficiency. Nissan are now in full production of the Leaf, a practical electric car that's half the price of the Model S. Renault have the Fluence ZE on sale in Israel and ready to go internationally this year. Mitsubishi are selling the i-MiEV in quantity in Hong Kong and Japan. All of these big, established car companies are doing it The Right Way - targeting customers who already drive highly efficient city cars. These are customers who predominantly drive short distances and who are used to driving a small car with few luxuries and a relatively low-powered engine. They understand the compromises necessary for efficiency. They're part of a car culture that sees nothing unusual about a 1.2 litre diesel engine or a turbocharged 900cc two-cylinder petrol engine. You can build these people a lightweight, efficient car that they can afford and that they'll be happy to drive. Tesla are amongst the many upstarts who are doing it The Wrong Way. They're trying to skip the necessary evolutionary steps a customer needs to make before they will be happy with a battery electric car. They're trying to lure people straight from heavy midsize cars and SUV crossovers, which is doomed to failure. These customers just haven't entered the efficiency mentality. They don't realise that efficient cars are noisier because they're not carrying the weight of sound insulation. They're not ready to wind down the window on a hot day to save the energy that AC would use. Tesla are trying to engineer around culture and it's an expensive, flimsy mistake. Sit it out, lobby congress to mandate improvements in diesel fuel quality and higher fleet efficiency standards, beg manufacturers to send over the clever little engines. Tax or shame SUV drivers into station wagons. Once you hear people describing the Ford Focus as a large family car, you'll know you're ready.
  • earl 15y ago
    since I was unaware: Tesla S seems to practically cost (with the large battery that still only gets you 300 miles) $70K after a $7.5k tax credit [1] and the Nissan leaf costs $35K but that seems to be before the $7.5k tax credit. [1] http://www.teslamotors.com/models/options http://www.teslamotors.com/models/options [2] http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index#/leaf-electric-car/index http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index#/leaf-elect...
    • 15y ago
• ohyes 15y ago
  > a regional service manager for Tesla stated he was personally aware of at least five cases of Tesla Roadsters being “bricked” due to battery depletion. This regional service manager has been sacked. The correct answer here was, "I'm not sure, I'll see if I can look that up for you," evasively answering ugly questions 101.
• shirro 15y ago
  There are too many rich shits in this world who have never known responsibility. If you want nice things you have to maintain them. I hope they never have pets or kids. You have to give them water, feed them and clean them all the time. It is inherent in the nature of some things that they screw up really quickly if you stop caring. It isn't a technology problem.
• pbreit 15y ago
  Without any further corroboration, I won't believe that this seemingly trivially addressed issue on an old model will affect future Tesla models.
• wavephorm 15y ago
  Um yeah so this why you should have a QA department.
• huhtenberg 15y ago
  Let me tell you how to brick a top of the line 2009 BMW. Easy-peasy. Lots of small trips, under 5 km, for 9 months. That's it. Apparently the discharge caused by starting the car and a draw from all the packages that are strapped to it are not offset by the charge received while driving unless the distance is at least 10 km per engine start. The only warning that the car gives is an "excessive battery discharge" and when it pops up the battery can no longer be fully recharged. Not covered by the warranty, because apparently there's a one-liner in manual that says "20 minute a day continuous drive minimum". Unlike Tesla's though the battery is "only" $700 to replace, not $40k.
  • lhnn 15y ago
    20 min per DAY? And a $700 battery? To hell with that, I'll slap a Duralast in the trunk and wire the damned thing up. But then again, I am not buying BMWs...
  • jonknee 15y ago
    $700 for a car battery?
  • dhbanes 15y ago
    $700? I suppose you also have BMW fill up your tank at $20/gallon.
  • run4yourlives 15y ago
    Unless BMW's are using some "buy only at BMW" type of design, a battery at costco will probably run you $100.
    • huhtenberg 15y ago
      Yeah, it's an OEM thing with a built-in micro controller, karma enhancer and god knows what else. Available from BMW only.
    • deleted 15y ago
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• pclark 15y ago
  My confusion with Tesla is this: around the rest of the world - outside of USA - there are already very fuel efficient automobiles. 60, 80, even 90 miles per gallon are common and applauded in Europe. America has the opposite approach and appears to optimise for size, comfort and perceived safety. (SUVs, Trucks, large saloons.) None of the things American consumers appear to value are correlated in the Tesla. When I look at the Tesla brand, product and marketing, all I can think is how popular this car would be in Europe. Just me? Why USA first?
  • rdl 15y ago
    The market is a few types of rich person. The nerd (who just loves the tech), the guy who genuinely cares about the environment (but is either required to drive long distances, or is irrational), the person who wants a sportscar or luxury car but also wants to socialize with or date leftist/environmentalists, someone who wants a california hov lane sticker but doesn't want to ride a motorcycle every day, ... This won't sell a few million cars a year, but I think in the USA, the market for the above is 50-100k cars per year, easy.
  • cynicalkane 15y ago
    Euro testing cycles are more generous, MPG figures are quoted in Imperial gallons (which are larger), and probably because of less dense cities they tend to be more tolerant of smog belching diesels. Diesels are fuel efficient but it's expensive to make them pollution efficient enough to pass American regulations. Many cars are the same in both countries. There isn't anything about America that makes them less efficient. The exceptions are those tiny city cars that Americans would never drive, and diesels.
    • CaptainZapp 15y ago
      Euro testing cycles are more generous, MPG figures are quoted in Imperial gallons I have never seen a MPG notation anywhere in Europe (possibly in the UK, but certainly nowhere else). Car efficiency is quoted by liters / 100 km just about everywhere around here. Or am I missing something?
• moonchrome 15y ago
  I don't think this affects Model S as much as it does the roadster - reason being - Model S is a car that you intend to use, not keep it in a garage as a collectors item - so it's probably going to be recharged on a regular basis. Stressing that it should be plugged if you intend to leave it for weeks is still important.
• ebaysucks 15y ago
  OK, so how much solar panels would Tesla need to install on the roof of a Model S to prevent this from happening?
• georgieporgie 15y ago
  At least in the case of the Tesla Roadster, it’s not even possible to enable tow mode, meaning the wheels will not turn and the vehicle cannot be pushed nor transported to a repair facility by traditional means. Well, that's completely false. A flatbed, which seems to be pretty standard for towing these days, will have now problem at all winching that vehicle onto the platform, whether the wheels turn or not.
• redcircle 15y ago
  The car is too risky to purchase if it can brick. There is no way to ensure that a brick can't happen. Any charging source could malfunction (e.g., trip a circuit breaker) without you becoming aware. You have to plan your whole life around keeping the car charged. You can't lend it to friends (nor your spouse that doesn't care about tech) --- oops, sorry, I didn't plug it in after my several-hour drive. It's like having a dog that needs constant care. This sounds too fantastic to be true.
• deleted 15y ago
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• spullara 15y ago
  5 cars out of 2200 doesn't really qualify as a devastating problem. The insurance for this for the fleet would probably run about $200/car based on a 100% profit for the insurer. Instead, charge $10/month per car and you are probably way ahead. If you have a Tesla and I get at least 100 people responding, I will do it for $20/month at my much smaller scale than a normal insurance company.
  • rganguly 15y ago
    Funny, I saw the Tesla problem and immediately thought to myself that there might be an interesting arbitrage oppty. If your car's been bricked and you don't want to fork out $40k, is it possible you'd sell the car for some $$ to a person willing to buy the new battery and get a discount to retail?
• verelo 15y ago
  Honestly, these cares look great and are all electric. Two things that i want in my next car. When i think electric car, i don't think of Ford, Nisan or any other generic (GM) brand. These guys pulled us from the dark ages of fuel (and the slightly brighter yet still dark ages of Hybrid cars) into the 21st century with a car that runs on electricity alone. With that in mind, the issue of a "Brick" isn't something I want...but if it can be solved then I'm all up for this being my next car. Is there any evidence that this same issue cant occur in the other main stream electric cars coming onto the market anyway?
• Tooluka 15y ago
  > A service manager then informed him that “it’s a brick” and that the battery would cost approximately $40,000 to replace. He was further told that this was a special “friends and family” price, strongly implying that Tesla generally charges more. > $40,000 (or more) to fix his car > full $40,000-plus cost > At the same time, the Model S pricing starts at $49,900 (after US tax incentives), broadening the market to households of far more modest means than the owners of the $109,000 and up Roadster. This in turn makes it even less likely that Tesla buyers will have the necessary tens of thousands of dollars to spare if they ever allow their battery to fully discharge. ("Implying that battery cost will be the same as for Roadster, car that costs 2.5 times more") Statements like this are generally bad for an article that tries to operate with facts.
• zvrba 15y ago
  Tesla uses apparently Li-ion battery. I wonder why I han't experienced the same problem with other electronics using that same type of battery. For example, I had my fully-charged mobile stored away for approx 5 months without charging. When I needed it again, the battery was still usable. A side-question: can somebody explain what happens to a Li-ion battery when it fully discharges? Why does it become a "brick"?
• antihero 15y ago
  It would be interesting if they (or we) were to do a service that for say, £20 a month, they would register if your car was about to flatline, go find it using the GPS, and attempt to recharge it for you.
  • bwarp 15y ago
    That's a sticky plaster solution. Not buying a buggy piece of crap to start with is the better solution.
• ck2 15y ago
  Oh come on, this is a trivial problem to solve. You put a $1 chip directly on the battery itself that if it ever drops below "x" volts, it breaks the circuit. Even if the owner has to take it back to the dealer to get it "reset" at least the battery will be saved. My $500 LiFePo4 battery for my bicycle has something like this to prevent cell reversal. They can certainly do it for a car unless they are just doing it on purpose. A disconnected lithium based battery can hold a base charge for YEARS.
• yardie 15y ago
  I'm more impressed by people that spend $100k on a car and then don't know how to take care of it. Do you know what happens when an ICE engine is left to sit for months? First the oil runs out to the pain and slowly evaporates. The cylinders might suffer some sticktion and possibly rust. And you've probably got small animals that have made a home in your engine block. The rubber in the tires will have deformed and even if you get it running it will be a very bumpy ride to the tire shop. Also the gas tank absorbs water if you live in a humid region like Florida. All of this is covered in the manual of every car I've ever owned. Drive it 5 minutes, at least, every few weeks to keep the lubricants lubricating or you end up with a very expensive rebuild.
  • njharman 15y ago
    > people that spend $100k People who spend that kind of money generally don't expect to have to do anything for themselves. That is why they pay 10x more.
    • yardie 15y ago
      You can't get anymore minimal maintenance than an electric car. If you're not using it leave it plugged in...and make sure your electric bill is paid up.
• motoford 15y ago
  Unfortunate title for a blog post by Tesla con-founder, "One Brick at a time" http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/one-brick-time http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/one-brick-time
• basseq 15y ago
  Five known cases out of 2,200 sales is a quarter of a percent. As a conservative estimate, let's say it's more like 1%. At $40,000 per replacement, adding $400 to the cost of the car (a 0.4-0.7% increase depending on model) seems nominal to then offer full coverage. Granted, the problem gets worse as more "consumer-level" customers purchase their cars and don't take as good care of them. Which then raises the question of why this is even possible. Why on earth will the car's systems happily destroy itself? Where's the "if BATTERY_LEVEL < CRITICAL: shutDown()" line?
• Newgy 15y ago
  Tesla are crony capitalists building a car that is worse for the environment (toxic battery, power waste across the grid, majority power from coal powerplants) than traditional combustion engine machines.
• brmj 15y ago
  This strikes me as extraordinarily foolish. It's not that hard to have a hard shutdown mode in which most of those parasitic loads are gone and trigger it if the battery charge drops bellow a certain level. We've had that technology in laptops for quite a while. This is not a hard problem to solve, and it is obvious enough that it should have occurred to someone. Also, monitoring the current it is getting for charging and displaying a warning if it is insufficient and perhaps a projected charging time would be a good feature.
• JulianMorrison 15y ago
  Why can't the battery just be simply disconnected?
• roc 15y ago
  Can someone explain why Tesla can't throw in a hibernation mode to dial down the idle power-drain? I mean, what are the "always on subsystems" doing that they're draining 50% charge in 7 days? Surely those systems and that level are drain aren't inherent in lithium-ion tech. And if Tesla can notify itself of a battery in danger of bricking, why can't they notify the driver well in advance of the emergency?
• Vixter 15y ago
  It will be interesting to see if Tesla will do the right thing and replace the battery packs at a reasonable price or create a PR disaster and then have to replace the packs anyway. So far HN and theunderstatement.com have the scoop. A search of the San Jose Mercury News doesn't show it yet. But there was mention of Tesla doing powertrains for Mercedes.
• rtremaine 15y ago
  I wonder if this is one http://bit.ly/zIL8eL http://bit.ly/zIL8eL, either that or the secondary market is worse than I thought.
• mellifluousmind 15y ago
  I am actually curious that if it is a fundamental design issue with battery, how are major car makers like Nissan handling its Leaf car? If everyone bricks their car needs to pay 40K for the replacement, it would be outrageous and all over the news. Personally, I do think that Tesla could have done more to make sure drivers are fully aware of this issue before making their purchase. Otherwise, I wouldn't put my money in Tesla stock, as they are sitting dock and waiting for class action lawsuits
• danbmil99 15y ago
  It's hard to imagine that, after all the hundreds of millions of dollars poured into this company, they would choose to charge the customer > $30K for a new battery in the few cases where this occurred. Is it really worth a few hundred thousand dollars to get the PR this article implies? And, why isn't there a failsafe mechanism that simply stops draining the battery completely before this happens? Then at least you can tow it home and recharge it -- inconvenient, but not $30K inconvenient.