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On this note, LA has hundreds of shelter beds the remain empty every night because they're located in "sober" facilities (meaning that the facilities do not all
by gamblor956 3y ago
On this note, LA has hundreds of shelter beds the remain empty every night because they're located in "sober" facilities (meaning that the facilities do not allow alcohol or drug use) and the putative residents would rather be able to drink and use drugs than to have shelter.
- bombcar 3y agoThere's a "missing middle" that we cannot provide in our current society. Nobody can provide "flop houses" where drugs and alcohol use are ignored unless you're harming someone, so there's nothing between sleeping rough under the bridge and being sober in a shelter. The liability alone would prevent any non-government agency from doing it, and even the government is scared.
- hackernewds 3y agoWhy should government provide this? It creates a perverse incentive as we observe in modern day SF
- amanaplanacanal 3y agoThe context is getting people off the street. If we don't care about that, then no, it shouldn't.
- bombcar 3y agoBecause nobody else can provide it without being sued into oblivion.
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoThe problem with flop houses that don’t have drug and alcohol restrictions is that the other residents suffer and things fall apart quickly. These aren’t people with great self control. Even homeless with drug and alcohol abuse problems will stay away from these places because they are too dangerous.
- bombcar 3y agoMaybe they need to be separated by some distance. It won’t be cheap (likely with security and other support staff you’re looking at one or to staff per “homeless”) but at some point something has to be done, or the status quo continues forever.
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoThat is what the current tiny home movement is for: you don’t have to room with crazy next door, and if you are crazy and burn it down, they are basically disposable.
- bombcar 3y agoThat’s what I’m thinking - imagine very tiny one room concrete houses on tiny little lots, maybe 10x10 on a 20x20 lot? No idea the numbers, but that’s bigger than a jail cell and they’re damn near indestructible.
- amanaplanacanal 3y agoIt's more than this though. Families can't stay together, belongings get stolen, safety can be an issue, you can't bring your pets, etc. There are a lot of reasons those kinds of shelter can't work for some people.
- ishjoh 3y agoI live in a midsize city outside of California that has 3 shelters downtown. 1 shelter dropped the sober requirement trying to house those people. They had to reinstate the rules within 24h because 2 employees had been assaulted, and a serious fight had broken out that required hospital care for both people involved. It is sad state of affairs.
- magicalist 3y agowhat city?
- suzzer99 3y agoYeah imagine if they allowed crack smoking or speed. No way. Heroin and fentanyl maybe.
- scythe 3y agoOne problem is the binary of "sober". Opioid substitution therapy has a long track record of effectiveness, but when treating homeless addicts we all too often insist they go through withdrawal, to nobody's benefit. Not all homeless are addicts, but an individual suffering opioid addiction has very different behavior from someone who isn't, and that requires particular attention. Opioids have the worst relapse rate of all addictive drugs. Stimulant withdrawal on the other hand is generally less severe, and acute stimulant intoxication is more likely to cause serious behavioral problems than with opioids (or methadone). Cocaine has a surprisingly low relapse rate, once sobriety is maintained for a few months. Alcohol is a little more difficult, because it not only has a dangerous withdrawal syndrome but it also causes aggressive or impulsive behavior. Treating withdrawal is imperative; substitution is difficult, since other anxiolytics can produce the same impulse control problems. Access to alcohol is pervasive, as well, and we would like to avoid constant monitoring. When we see only the possibilities of permissiveness or restriction and not active and detailed intervention, we are not playing with a full deck. As another commenter mentioned, simply allowing shelter residents to use drugs creates risks to other residents and staff. But we should be as accommodating as reasonably achievable.
- convolvatron 3y agoanother aspect here is that we're not just talking about users. in the areas I frequent in SF the homeless population has dropped a lot in the last year - except for the cooks and the dealers. they aren't giving up their only income stream.
- thomastjeffery 3y agoCramming everyone who isn't sober into one facility is a bad idea? No shit, Sherlock! Maybe we should try treating people better than sardines.