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Most batteries are custom made for their end clients. A Tesla for instance does not have 10mil AAs squeezed into the chaisse, it has model specific weird shape

Most batteries are custom made for their end clients. A Tesla for instance does not have 10mil AAs squeezed into the chaisse, it has model specific weird shapes with proprietary connectors etc. Batteries do not require high tech or high cost manufacturing plants either (like say leading edge microchips). Similarly most applications for batteries (most of manufacturing really) uses Just In Time inventory management. Batteries are (saly still) bulky and quite heavy, so you don't really want to ship them about, especially not as (fast) air freight. So it makes sense that most regions (or even individual countries) will ultimately end up making their own, locally.

recursive 3y ago
> it has model specific weird shapes with proprietary connectors No. The shape is cylinder. They're not model specific. https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/22/everything-you-need-to-know-about-teslas-new-4680-battery-cell/ https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/22/everything-you-need-to-...
- bombcar 3y ago
  I know the tool companies are experimenting with using "laptop-style" batteries as opposed to the standard round cells: https://toolguyd.com/dewalt-powerstack-battery-comparison/ https://toolguyd.com/dewalt-powerstack-battery-comparison/ Of course the dream would be something where you could basically pour "molten battery" into whatever shape you wanted, and then use it - removing all the wasted space.
  - jjoonathan 3y ago
    It isn't just a matter of just optimal-packing the material, you have to figure out the thermal runaway problem. That's the big argument between prismatic vs cylindrical cells, anyway. Prisms do a good job of filling a block of space but they don't provide nearly the structural integrity to contain, isolate, and direct the venting of a misbehaving cell.
rconti 3y ago
The cell themselves are fairly standard, it's the packs themselves, cooling systems, BMS, etc, that are custom.
anonporridge 3y ago
It's not obviously true that the weight and bulk of the batteries necessarily means that production will be localized. After all, the input materials are just as heavy and bulky if not more so before refinement. And many of those inputs are mined from only a handful of concentrated places on Earth, and so need to be shipped long distances regardless in order to disperse to where humans actually live and demand the end products. A better argument for localization might be that the dangerous and explosive nature of battery cells makes shipping the finished product longer distances more risky (and therefore more costly) than shipping the non volatile inputs long distances. So the extra cost of shipping cells drives localization of production.
jeffbee 3y ago
The question is why your belief is so widespread. The battery pack in a Telsa S or X model was literally 7000 flashlight batteries in a metal box. The newer standard-range pack from the 3 and Y models has thousands of larger cylindrical cells that won't literally fit in standard flashlight but which are nevertheless off-the-shelf Panasonic catalog batteries.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  > The newer standard-range pack from the 3 and Y Just the Y. The standard range pack for the 3 is prismatic LFP. And I think the standard range Y may be haded that way. There was also a recent rumor that the newest 3LR is now LFP, but I don't know if that's been confirmed.
- acyou 3y ago
  This is a little bit of an over-simplification. These particular 21700 and 4680 Panasonic cells are not off-the-shelf or catalog. As far as I know, they were designed specifically with the EV application and Tesla pack in mind. And to my knowledge, the Tesla Panasonic cell variants only exist in Teslas. We could not take some other 21700s and make a roughly equivalent pack without a good deal of effort. The thermal characteristics, impedance, length, width, diameter, would be different. There may not even be any cells available with equivalent form factor and performance characteristics. We haven't seen Tesla or anyone else taking "commodity" 21700 cells and mixing and matching them and throwing them into a pack, it's not possible to do that. Usually, we pick one or two cell manufacturers. It's telling that even Tesla, with their massive buying power, doesn't purchase from LG, Sony or Samsung, only Panasonic in the West for NCA and CATL in China for LFP. Why exactly do we think that is? It's not quite at the level of people saying computer chips are commodities, and you can just plug your device into one interchangeably. But these cells are not easy and simple. We tend to just think something's easy because we don't have good experience with it. For lithium ion, under the hood, there's enough complexity and risk that the details become very important, very quickly.
snovv_crash 3y ago
There's a global battery shortage. Tesla will put whatever cells it can into their packs in the coming years, including soft 'pouch' cells.
timerol 3y ago
18650 and 21700 (aka 2170) are standard cylindrical shapes for EV battery cells, so the comparison to AAs falls flat. Tesla has launched the 4680 cell, and the industry may move in that direction. Batteries are custom on a per car basis, in the same way that remote controls are all shaped uniquely, but almost all of them will take either AAs or CR2032 cells. Pouch and "blade" cells are much less standard, and are also used in a bunch of EVs, like GM's Ultium platform. Following through the examples in the article, the battery factories are all also including battery cell manufacturing either onsite or nearby. (The BMW example has "an agreement to source next generation lithium-ion battery cells from Envision AESC, which will build a new plant in the state." The others are combo cell+battery factories, like Tesla does.)
- acyou 3y ago
  Interestingly, the shapes are not standard. The lengths and diameters vary a little from cell to cell, and quite significantly from cell type to cell type (Yes, I'm talking 21700 from one manufacturer vs 21700 from another manufacturer, and different models of 21700 from the same manufacturer). That's just the tip of the iceberg, never mind the actual cell performance. In pack manufacturing, you cannot swap cell types out easily. I could go on... That's why they are making the cells near the pack assembly facilities. It's because they are planning to use those specific cells.
EliRivers 3y ago
Shipping high-value items can be an astonishingly small part of the total cost; especially if you're sending it by sea. A few years ago I calculated that an (at the time) maximum sized container vessel carrying a full load of electronics in containers (which is very unlikely, but I picked a high value density item just to get an idea of the general numbers) would be carrying a cargo worth on the order of a billion dollars, and the cost of shipping each electronic good (I picked something around the size of a small PC tower; about 0.05 cubic metres) across an ocean, port to port, was on the order of a dollar. That kind of money. So I guess if I scale that up to an EV battery, volume about a third of a cubic metre, so about seven or eight times the volume, that's still less than ten dollars per EV battery shipped across an ocean, if you've got a ship full of them. I don't know what the total parts and labour cost of an EV battery is, but by this admittedly fast, brutal and half-remembered back of envelope calculation the numbers only have to be a few tens of dollars different to make it worth building them on the other side of the planet and shipping them across an ocean.
- CydeWeys 3y ago
  People significantly overestimate how expensive shipping by sea costs. Much less valuable goods than batteries get shipped across the entire Pacific Ocean. Think of all those cheap junk toys from China, for example. If those can be shipped profitably, then batteries for $30k+ cars absolutely can be!
  - imtringued 3y ago
    Cheap junk toys don't take much space. Try something actually bulky like lumber.
    - EliRivers 3y ago
      Sure, but lumber is cheap. Hundred of dollars per cubic metre; literally 1% or less the value of the same volume of quality electronics or high-processed goods. That is the point here; high value density goods are so cheap to ship that making your EV battery plant near your car assembly plant is a false economy if you can save just a few tens of dollars on parts and labour on the other side of the planet.
acyou 3y ago
Yes. Contrary to popular belief, cells with 18650 and 21700 cylindrical form factors, despite being approximately the same size and shape as other 18650/21700 cells, are not particularly "general purpose" as you or I would think of AA or AAA batteries. Major customers would likely have their own variants and particular specifications on variable parameters associated with these cells. And battery pack makers cannot easily switch between cell types and manufacturers. Source: I used to work for a major 18650/21700 cell manufacturer. I have torn down many battery packs and cells and know what's inside. And, it's well publicized that only Panasonic cells were in Model 3s for ages. If picking and choosing cells were so easy, and cells are really commodities, then why would Tesla bind themselves to a single cell manufacturer? Answer: They wouldn't. Cells are not generally interchangeable, not by a long shot. That being said, I would not go so far to say the cells are "custom made". The packs, sure. But cells are close variants of the same technology and process, and many smaller and lower customers may just use the same cells from a single manufacturer. You are incorrect about batteries not needing high tech and high cost manufacturing plants. In fact, the requirements around cleanliness and process control are very high, for yield, cost and safety reasons. Capital equipment costs and knowledge base requirements are high. I'm not sure how they compare to the requirements around leading edge microchips, but I would imagine that they would want to use similar approaches. As far as shipping goes, cells are shipped around via air freight all the time. They are going to need to get shipped regardless at some point. And, to the contrary, given my experiences with ground freight in general, I would not want to send cells via ground services.
- jeffbee 3y ago
  > why would Tesla bind themselves to a single cell manufacturer? Pretty clear answer to that one. The battery maker put up 100% of the initial capital to tool up the battery-making facility. Tesla only had to pay for the building.
- xyzzy123 3y ago
  All people wat "does stuff" are both charging big % & gett'n fked for last 12.

recursive 3y ago

> it has model specific weird shapes with proprietary connectors No. The shape is cylinder. They're not model specific. https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/22/everything-you-need-to-know-about-teslas-new-4680-battery-cell/ https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/22/everything-you-need-to-...

bombcar 3y ago
I know the tool companies are experimenting with using "laptop-style" batteries as opposed to the standard round cells: https://toolguyd.com/dewalt-powerstack-battery-comparison/ https://toolguyd.com/dewalt-powerstack-battery-comparison/ Of course the dream would be something where you could basically pour "molten battery" into whatever shape you wanted, and then use it - removing all the wasted space.
- jjoonathan 3y ago
  It isn't just a matter of just optimal-packing the material, you have to figure out the thermal runaway problem. That's the big argument between prismatic vs cylindrical cells, anyway. Prisms do a good job of filling a block of space but they don't provide nearly the structural integrity to contain, isolate, and direct the venting of a misbehaving cell.

rconti 3y ago

The cell themselves are fairly standard, it's the packs themselves, cooling systems, BMS, etc, that are custom.

anonporridge 3y ago

It's not obviously true that the weight and bulk of the batteries necessarily means that production will be localized. After all, the input materials are just as heavy and bulky if not more so before refinement. And many of those inputs are mined from only a handful of concentrated places on Earth, and so need to be shipped long distances regardless in order to disperse to where humans actually live and demand the end products. A better argument for localization might be that the dangerous and explosive nature of battery cells makes shipping the finished product longer distances more risky (and therefore more costly) than shipping the non volatile inputs long distances. So the extra cost of shipping cells drives localization of production.

jeffbee 3y ago

The question is why your belief is so widespread. The battery pack in a Telsa S or X model was literally 7000 flashlight batteries in a metal box. The newer standard-range pack from the 3 and Y models has thousands of larger cylindrical cells that won't literally fit in standard flashlight but which are nevertheless off-the-shelf Panasonic catalog batteries.

rootusrootus 3y ago
> The newer standard-range pack from the 3 and Y Just the Y. The standard range pack for the 3 is prismatic LFP. And I think the standard range Y may be haded that way. There was also a recent rumor that the newest 3LR is now LFP, but I don't know if that's been confirmed.
acyou 3y ago
This is a little bit of an over-simplification. These particular 21700 and 4680 Panasonic cells are not off-the-shelf or catalog. As far as I know, they were designed specifically with the EV application and Tesla pack in mind. And to my knowledge, the Tesla Panasonic cell variants only exist in Teslas. We could not take some other 21700s and make a roughly equivalent pack without a good deal of effort. The thermal characteristics, impedance, length, width, diameter, would be different. There may not even be any cells available with equivalent form factor and performance characteristics. We haven't seen Tesla or anyone else taking "commodity" 21700 cells and mixing and matching them and throwing them into a pack, it's not possible to do that. Usually, we pick one or two cell manufacturers. It's telling that even Tesla, with their massive buying power, doesn't purchase from LG, Sony or Samsung, only Panasonic in the West for NCA and CATL in China for LFP. Why exactly do we think that is? It's not quite at the level of people saying computer chips are commodities, and you can just plug your device into one interchangeably. But these cells are not easy and simple. We tend to just think something's easy because we don't have good experience with it. For lithium ion, under the hood, there's enough complexity and risk that the details become very important, very quickly.

snovv_crash 3y ago

There's a global battery shortage. Tesla will put whatever cells it can into their packs in the coming years, including soft 'pouch' cells.

timerol 3y ago

18650 and 21700 (aka 2170) are standard cylindrical shapes for EV battery cells, so the comparison to AAs falls flat. Tesla has launched the 4680 cell, and the industry may move in that direction. Batteries are custom on a per car basis, in the same way that remote controls are all shaped uniquely, but almost all of them will take either AAs or CR2032 cells. Pouch and "blade" cells are much less standard, and are also used in a bunch of EVs, like GM's Ultium platform. Following through the examples in the article, the battery factories are all also including battery cell manufacturing either onsite or nearby. (The BMW example has "an agreement to source next generation lithium-ion battery cells from Envision AESC, which will build a new plant in the state." The others are combo cell+battery factories, like Tesla does.)

acyou 3y ago
Interestingly, the shapes are not standard. The lengths and diameters vary a little from cell to cell, and quite significantly from cell type to cell type (Yes, I'm talking 21700 from one manufacturer vs 21700 from another manufacturer, and different models of 21700 from the same manufacturer). That's just the tip of the iceberg, never mind the actual cell performance. In pack manufacturing, you cannot swap cell types out easily. I could go on... That's why they are making the cells near the pack assembly facilities. It's because they are planning to use those specific cells.

EliRivers 3y ago

Shipping high-value items can be an astonishingly small part of the total cost; especially if you're sending it by sea. A few years ago I calculated that an (at the time) maximum sized container vessel carrying a full load of electronics in containers (which is very unlikely, but I picked a high value density item just to get an idea of the general numbers) would be carrying a cargo worth on the order of a billion dollars, and the cost of shipping each electronic good (I picked something around the size of a small PC tower; about 0.05 cubic metres) across an ocean, port to port, was on the order of a dollar. That kind of money. So I guess if I scale that up to an EV battery, volume about a third of a cubic metre, so about seven or eight times the volume, that's still less than ten dollars per EV battery shipped across an ocean, if you've got a ship full of them. I don't know what the total parts and labour cost of an EV battery is, but by this admittedly fast, brutal and half-remembered back of envelope calculation the numbers only have to be a few tens of dollars different to make it worth building them on the other side of the planet and shipping them across an ocean.

CydeWeys 3y ago
People significantly overestimate how expensive shipping by sea costs. Much less valuable goods than batteries get shipped across the entire Pacific Ocean. Think of all those cheap junk toys from China, for example. If those can be shipped profitably, then batteries for $30k+ cars absolutely can be!
- imtringued 3y ago
  Cheap junk toys don't take much space. Try something actually bulky like lumber.
  - EliRivers 3y ago
    Sure, but lumber is cheap. Hundred of dollars per cubic metre; literally 1% or less the value of the same volume of quality electronics or high-processed goods. That is the point here; high value density goods are so cheap to ship that making your EV battery plant near your car assembly plant is a false economy if you can save just a few tens of dollars on parts and labour on the other side of the planet.

acyou 3y ago

Yes. Contrary to popular belief, cells with 18650 and 21700 cylindrical form factors, despite being approximately the same size and shape as other 18650/21700 cells, are not particularly "general purpose" as you or I would think of AA or AAA batteries. Major customers would likely have their own variants and particular specifications on variable parameters associated with these cells. And battery pack makers cannot easily switch between cell types and manufacturers. Source: I used to work for a major 18650/21700 cell manufacturer. I have torn down many battery packs and cells and know what's inside. And, it's well publicized that only Panasonic cells were in Model 3s for ages. If picking and choosing cells were so easy, and cells are really commodities, then why would Tesla bind themselves to a single cell manufacturer? Answer: They wouldn't. Cells are not generally interchangeable, not by a long shot. That being said, I would not go so far to say the cells are "custom made". The packs, sure. But cells are close variants of the same technology and process, and many smaller and lower customers may just use the same cells from a single manufacturer. You are incorrect about batteries not needing high tech and high cost manufacturing plants. In fact, the requirements around cleanliness and process control are very high, for yield, cost and safety reasons. Capital equipment costs and knowledge base requirements are high. I'm not sure how they compare to the requirements around leading edge microchips, but I would imagine that they would want to use similar approaches. As far as shipping goes, cells are shipped around via air freight all the time. They are going to need to get shipped regardless at some point. And, to the contrary, given my experiences with ground freight in general, I would not want to send cells via ground services.

jeffbee 3y ago
> why would Tesla bind themselves to a single cell manufacturer? Pretty clear answer to that one. The battery maker put up 100% of the initial capital to tool up the battery-making facility. Tesla only had to pay for the building.
xyzzy123 3y ago
All people wat "does stuff" are both charging big % & gett'n fked for last 12.