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They mention that permits would require a sustainable water source other than groundwater. What would such a source be? Surely any water collection system would

They mention that permits would require a sustainable water source other than groundwater. What would such a source be? Surely any water collection system would be preventing water from reaching the water table (intuitively, I am not an expert)?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
andsoitis 3y ago
Piping desalinated water from the coast.
- thehappypm 3y ago
  Uphill?
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    > Uphill? How William Mulholland Made Water Flow Uphill: https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/citydig-how-william-mulholland-made-water-flow-uphill/ https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/citydig-how-william-mulh...
    - thehappypm 3y ago
      Cool, but less helpful when Arizona cities range from 1000 to 6000 feet higher than the water source
mechagodzilla 3y ago
Buying river water rights from someone that has an existing claim (rather than just installing a pump and taking 'free' water from the aquifer). It's not that there isn't any water at all, it's just that the water is spoken for (frequently for relatively low return activities like alfalfa farming).
- lumost 3y ago
  won't this create a market for water rights? provided rights are limited and transferable, we would expect that higher value use cases would purchase the rights over time.
  - thedaly 3y ago
    One would think, but scarcity keeps the value high, and places with water rights are seen as a great investment. https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/22/business/southwest-water-colorado-river-wall-street-climate/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/22/business/southwest-water-colo...
  - HarryHirsch 3y ago
    Good luck with that. We getting a good view how markets with constrained supply work with Ozempic. On one side you have people with diabetes and circulation problems who need it as a medication to keep all their bodily appendages, and on the other side are have Elon Musk & friends who push it as if it were stimulant because they can't control their food intake. Now try this with water. Agriculture vs golf course communities, good luck!
- hedora 3y ago
  The article says that they're going to require new houses to draw 100% of water from the Colorado river, and that Phoenix is one of the fastest growing cities in the US. Of course, Arizona has simultaneously promised to cut usage of river water. I'm guessing the local government is betting that possession is 9/10ths of ownership when it comes to water rights, and they plan to simply ignore interstate water rights moving forward.
hedora 3y ago
There are a lot of technologies that will harvest water from the atmosphere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_water_generator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_water_generator On average, the excess energy in the atmosphere from global warming will suspend too much water vapor in the sky, creating second order problems. The amount of suspended water will be more than enough for household usage. I have no idea if averaging too much atmospheric water globally does anything to help Arizona though.
pfdietz 3y ago
Water recovered from sewage streams. This is how the Palo Verde nuclear plant, 45 miles from Phoenix, is cooled. It's the only large nuclear power plant in the world not located near water. This means Phoenix would have more water if they sourced their power from elsewhere, for example from solar, since they wouldn't have to evaporate their sewer water to keep the nuclear plant running. Cooling the plant evaporates up to 100 million cubic meters (80,000 acre-feet) of water a year.
- bigyikes 3y ago
  Maybe a dumb question but can you recapture the evaporated water from stream turbines? Like, I dunno, put a hat on it to condense the water? Does it necessarily need to be boiled off to the atmosphere? (Not that I think retrofitting a nuclear plant is trivial)
  - pfdietz 3y ago
    This isn't water that goes through the steam turbines. It's water that's used on the other "side" of the condenser to condense the water that went through the steam turbines. This water is, in turn, allowed to evaporate, carrying away the waste heat (as latent and sensible heat) into the environment. Recondensing the evaporated water would just produce that heat again. The water going through the steam turbines themselves is highly purified and gets reused many times. It would be possible to design a nuclear power plant that's air cooled, but it would be more expensive, and would likely require a reactor operating at a higher temperature with a higher exhaust temperature.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

andsoitis 3y ago

Piping desalinated water from the coast.

thehappypm 3y ago
Uphill?
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > Uphill? How William Mulholland Made Water Flow Uphill: https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/citydig-how-william-mulholland-made-water-flow-uphill/ https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/citydig-how-william-mulh...
  - thehappypm 3y ago
    Cool, but less helpful when Arizona cities range from 1000 to 6000 feet higher than the water source

mechagodzilla 3y ago

Buying river water rights from someone that has an existing claim (rather than just installing a pump and taking 'free' water from the aquifer). It's not that there isn't any water at all, it's just that the water is spoken for (frequently for relatively low return activities like alfalfa farming).

lumost 3y ago
won't this create a market for water rights? provided rights are limited and transferable, we would expect that higher value use cases would purchase the rights over time.
- thedaly 3y ago
  One would think, but scarcity keeps the value high, and places with water rights are seen as a great investment. https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/22/business/southwest-water-colorado-river-wall-street-climate/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/22/business/southwest-water-colo...
- HarryHirsch 3y ago
  Good luck with that. We getting a good view how markets with constrained supply work with Ozempic. On one side you have people with diabetes and circulation problems who need it as a medication to keep all their bodily appendages, and on the other side are have Elon Musk & friends who push it as if it were stimulant because they can't control their food intake. Now try this with water. Agriculture vs golf course communities, good luck!
hedora 3y ago
The article says that they're going to require new houses to draw 100% of water from the Colorado river, and that Phoenix is one of the fastest growing cities in the US. Of course, Arizona has simultaneously promised to cut usage of river water. I'm guessing the local government is betting that possession is 9/10ths of ownership when it comes to water rights, and they plan to simply ignore interstate water rights moving forward.

hedora 3y ago

There are a lot of technologies that will harvest water from the atmosphere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_water_generator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_water_generator On average, the excess energy in the atmosphere from global warming will suspend too much water vapor in the sky, creating second order problems. The amount of suspended water will be more than enough for household usage. I have no idea if averaging too much atmospheric water globally does anything to help Arizona though.

pfdietz 3y ago

Water recovered from sewage streams. This is how the Palo Verde nuclear plant, 45 miles from Phoenix, is cooled. It's the only large nuclear power plant in the world not located near water. This means Phoenix would have more water if they sourced their power from elsewhere, for example from solar, since they wouldn't have to evaporate their sewer water to keep the nuclear plant running. Cooling the plant evaporates up to 100 million cubic meters (80,000 acre-feet) of water a year.

bigyikes 3y ago
Maybe a dumb question but can you recapture the evaporated water from stream turbines? Like, I dunno, put a hat on it to condense the water? Does it necessarily need to be boiled off to the atmosphere? (Not that I think retrofitting a nuclear plant is trivial)
- pfdietz 3y ago
  This isn't water that goes through the steam turbines. It's water that's used on the other "side" of the condenser to condense the water that went through the steam turbines. This water is, in turn, allowed to evaporate, carrying away the waste heat (as latent and sensible heat) into the environment. Recondensing the evaporated water would just produce that heat again. The water going through the steam turbines themselves is highly purified and gets reused many times. It would be possible to design a nuclear power plant that's air cooled, but it would be more expensive, and would likely require a reactor operating at a higher temperature with a higher exhaust temperature.