5 ms·

Relegation and promotion are just such good systems that all sports should have them

PaulHoule 3y ago
Frequently I get a bunch of free Giants gear around November because my friends who are Giants fans are disgusted with how they are playing and don't want to be seen in them. If the NFL had relegation this couldn't happen so chronically. On the other hand, promotion/relegation needs a big enough market to support multiple tiers. Amazingly, the UK has several layers of leagues that attract fans and seem to be economically viable (in some sense) but MLS struggles to attract any attention at all in the U.S. and how second and third tier leagues could be viable is beyond me.
- iainmerrick 3y ago
  I think it’s somewhat analogous to both NFL and college football being popular in the US. It’s incredible to me that people are so keen to watch college students play, but I hear it’s a pretty big deal.
  - kevinmchugh 3y ago
    There's big swathes of the US that aren't dense enough to attract an NFL team but have plenty of people who like football. The urban/rural divide and state rivalries in the US also makes it an awkward fit sometimes for a person to root for their nearest team. University teams may also be less anchored to an individual star since they age out so quickly, and could have a coherent identity for decades under a single coach
- kevinmchugh 3y ago
  I don't know that soccer in the US could support a promotion/relegation system but basketball, baseball, and football could. NCAA and MiLB are popular enough that lower leagues could be sustained.
  - smcl 3y ago
    I think the greater worry is that the gap in quality and finances between any second tier and the NBA or NFL would be so enormous that you're virtually guaranteed to bankrupt any relegated team (decreased TV money, sponsorship, merch, gate receipts) and to completely crush any newly promoted team. That is unless you dumped a huge amount of capital into building or subsidising the second tier for a few seasons at least. I don't think an MLS second tier would be too far behind in terms of quality, and the defacto second tier - the USL Championship - currently has attendance roughly double that of the Scottish second tier[0] which is ample to sustain a professional league, and that'd surely improve if there was the possibility of promotion to the MLS on the line. But if I understand it correctly there's some weird system where the MLS organization itself owns the teams, so presumably they would be resistant to any of them being relegated, unless they also owned those in the second tier. But in reality promotion and relegation isn't a thing in US professional sport, and it's not structured such that it's really feasible or desirable. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just different. [0] - 5,061/game on average over the 27 USL teams in the regular season (rising to 7,841 in the post-season) vs 2,237/game in the mostly-pro Scottish Championship
    - kevinmchugh 3y ago
      Where I think the American system breaks down is that the value of teams is in the branding and the exclusive status. Just being in the league means the franchise is worth single digit billion dollars, and that floor will hold no matter how long a team is bad. It can't happen because that floor is useful to the owners, I imagine if by some miracle it did the NFL would split into two leagues. There's a bunch of non NFL football that could also fit into that lower tier, arena, cfl, fcf. The NCAA is the other force keeping this from happening. The Sooners saturate the need for an Oklahoma football team, there doesn't need to be a second or third tier team there. But it'd be more interesting and competitive if these leagues were integrated together. I also would hope promotion/relegation would help with the tanking that's so noticable in the NHL and NBA but don't know enough about drafting/recruiting in European football (and there's probably much simpler solutions there)
      - 3y ago
- WorldMaker 3y ago
  The US has second, third, and fourth tier leagues already, though those are all part of USL rather than MLS. MLS has a lot more money than USL and isn't interested in promotion/relegation concepts because it is built like MLB/NBA and likes the gatekeeping aspects of those because that influences investment money and helps keep MLS comparatively rich. But USL thinks promotion/relegation could work in the US, they just don't think it can work that well if they don't also control the top tier league. From my understanding USL has quietly been hoping that play in the USL Championship league (their top tier and comparatively in the US market the "second tier" overall) could get competitive and interesting enough to usurp the MLS and put USL in a place to have the top-tier and move to a "proper" European-style relegation/promotion system.
  - smcl 3y ago
    If they're not interested in promotion and relegation maybe a national cup competition, like the FA Cup in England, could be one fun way to have some level of integration with the other levels. The excitement of cup competitions would boost attendance across the board, and fun moments like cup upsets (a lower tier team defeating a top-tier one) raise the profile of the sport overall through media exposure. It's maybe more tempting for MLS to focus on money-spinning continental competitions like the CONCACAF equivalent to the Champions League. But I think they'd be missing out if they didn't at least explore a "US FA Cup" as a means of growing interest in the domestic game itself, which indirectly benefits them.
    - brycekahle 3y ago
      Such a tournament already exists, called the U.S. Open Cup[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Open_Cup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Open_Cup
      - smcl 3y ago
        Oh amazing! Shows my ignorance of the game outside my little bubble, but I'm delighted to learn of its existence!
    - deleted 3y ago
pcchristie 3y ago
Realistically, you can't run a draft/salary cap with promotion/relegation though, and I think those systems are better at ensuring equalisation. In Europe, the Premier League is the "best" competition because realistically 5 teams have a chance of ever winning the league. In other leagues like France, Italy and Spain, they are duopolies (at best).
- alkonaut 3y ago
  Yeah, so (almost) every league in the world has chosen the chance of promotion over artificial equality. But this isn't really a "choice" because the league isn't (just) a business and the teams aren't "franchises" they are clubs. Half the point of having a well-functioning club is having a good youth org/academy which might give you a cheaper way of getting talent than having to sign it at market value. I'd much rather watch my team finish in the middle of the French League every year of my entire life without any realistic chance of winning than watch a closed league with artificial balancing.

Frequently I get a bunch of free Giants gear around November because my friends who are Giants fans are disgusted with how they are playing and don't want to be seen in them. If the NFL had relegation this couldn't happen so chronically. On the other hand, promotion/relegation needs a big enough market to support multiple tiers. Amazingly, the UK has several layers of leagues that attract fans and seem to be economically viable (in some sense) but MLS struggles to attract any attention at all in the U.S. and how second and third tier leagues could be viable is beyond me.

iainmerrick 3y ago
I think it’s somewhat analogous to both NFL and college football being popular in the US. It’s incredible to me that people are so keen to watch college students play, but I hear it’s a pretty big deal.
- kevinmchugh 3y ago
  There's big swathes of the US that aren't dense enough to attract an NFL team but have plenty of people who like football. The urban/rural divide and state rivalries in the US also makes it an awkward fit sometimes for a person to root for their nearest team. University teams may also be less anchored to an individual star since they age out so quickly, and could have a coherent identity for decades under a single coach
kevinmchugh 3y ago
I don't know that soccer in the US could support a promotion/relegation system but basketball, baseball, and football could. NCAA and MiLB are popular enough that lower leagues could be sustained.
- smcl 3y ago
  I think the greater worry is that the gap in quality and finances between any second tier and the NBA or NFL would be so enormous that you're virtually guaranteed to bankrupt any relegated team (decreased TV money, sponsorship, merch, gate receipts) and to completely crush any newly promoted team. That is unless you dumped a huge amount of capital into building or subsidising the second tier for a few seasons at least. I don't think an MLS second tier would be too far behind in terms of quality, and the defacto second tier - the USL Championship - currently has attendance roughly double that of the Scottish second tier[0] which is ample to sustain a professional league, and that'd surely improve if there was the possibility of promotion to the MLS on the line. But if I understand it correctly there's some weird system where the MLS organization itself owns the teams, so presumably they would be resistant to any of them being relegated, unless they also owned those in the second tier. But in reality promotion and relegation isn't a thing in US professional sport, and it's not structured such that it's really feasible or desirable. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just different. [0] - 5,061/game on average over the 27 USL teams in the regular season (rising to 7,841 in the post-season) vs 2,237/game in the mostly-pro Scottish Championship
  - kevinmchugh 3y ago
    Where I think the American system breaks down is that the value of teams is in the branding and the exclusive status. Just being in the league means the franchise is worth single digit billion dollars, and that floor will hold no matter how long a team is bad. It can't happen because that floor is useful to the owners, I imagine if by some miracle it did the NFL would split into two leagues. There's a bunch of non NFL football that could also fit into that lower tier, arena, cfl, fcf. The NCAA is the other force keeping this from happening. The Sooners saturate the need for an Oklahoma football team, there doesn't need to be a second or third tier team there. But it'd be more interesting and competitive if these leagues were integrated together. I also would hope promotion/relegation would help with the tanking that's so noticable in the NHL and NBA but don't know enough about drafting/recruiting in European football (and there's probably much simpler solutions there)
    - 3y ago
WorldMaker 3y ago
The US has second, third, and fourth tier leagues already, though those are all part of USL rather than MLS. MLS has a lot more money than USL and isn't interested in promotion/relegation concepts because it is built like MLB/NBA and likes the gatekeeping aspects of those because that influences investment money and helps keep MLS comparatively rich. But USL thinks promotion/relegation could work in the US, they just don't think it can work that well if they don't also control the top tier league. From my understanding USL has quietly been hoping that play in the USL Championship league (their top tier and comparatively in the US market the "second tier" overall) could get competitive and interesting enough to usurp the MLS and put USL in a place to have the top-tier and move to a "proper" European-style relegation/promotion system.
- smcl 3y ago
  If they're not interested in promotion and relegation maybe a national cup competition, like the FA Cup in England, could be one fun way to have some level of integration with the other levels. The excitement of cup competitions would boost attendance across the board, and fun moments like cup upsets (a lower tier team defeating a top-tier one) raise the profile of the sport overall through media exposure. It's maybe more tempting for MLS to focus on money-spinning continental competitions like the CONCACAF equivalent to the Champions League. But I think they'd be missing out if they didn't at least explore a "US FA Cup" as a means of growing interest in the domestic game itself, which indirectly benefits them.
  - brycekahle 3y ago
    Such a tournament already exists, called the U.S. Open Cup[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Open_Cup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Open_Cup
    - smcl 3y ago
      Oh amazing! Shows my ignorance of the game outside my little bubble, but I'm delighted to learn of its existence!
  - deleted 3y ago

pcchristie 3y ago

Realistically, you can't run a draft/salary cap with promotion/relegation though, and I think those systems are better at ensuring equalisation. In Europe, the Premier League is the "best" competition because realistically 5 teams have a chance of ever winning the league. In other leagues like France, Italy and Spain, they are duopolies (at best).

alkonaut 3y ago
Yeah, so (almost) every league in the world has chosen the chance of promotion over artificial equality. But this isn't really a "choice" because the league isn't (just) a business and the teams aren't "franchises" they are clubs. Half the point of having a well-functioning club is having a good youth org/academy which might give you a cheaper way of getting talent than having to sign it at market value. I'd much rather watch my team finish in the middle of the French League every year of my entire life without any realistic chance of winning than watch a closed league with artificial balancing.