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No, I'm sorry. People want to assume the people that made the games they like aren't responsible for the harrassment, and the people who made changes to the gam

by Macha 3y ago

No, I'm sorry. People want to assume the people that made the games they like aren't responsible for the harrassment, and the people who made changes to the games they didn't like are responsible, but there's plenty of the classic blizzard people who have been involved in the abuse, yet at the same time I haven't heard anything bad about the behaviour of the likes of Ion, lead designer for BFA/Shadowlands, or the "Do you not have phones?" guy, as poorly received as their game design decisions have been.

surgical_fire 3y ago
The thing is that the vast majority people just don't care about the culture of harassment in the company. And honestly, I don't see why they should, as it does not affect them as consumers. Making shit products is something that affects consumers, and they will complain about that.
- Macha 3y ago
  It's one thing if they don't care about the abuse, but they should be honest (including with themselves) on that. It's another to reassign the abuse to people they have different reasons to dislike.
  - surgical_fire 3y ago
    That's a fair take. A lot of things I love were made my people that I find personally despicable. If I have to weight how much I like the creators and companies behind everything I consume, that will be recipe for a very tiresome and frustrating life. This is not to give a pass to Blizzard. The scandals there are pretty bad. But it's up to the employees (and perhaps to the judicial system) to do something about it.
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      Some of the employees were the perpetrators, some were the victims, and some decided putting food on the table was more important than making the moral stand. Management will do as much about this as the market incentivizes them to. Ultimately the ability to produce incentives is in the hands of consumers most directly, and through the judicial system, (so, pretty indirectly) voters. I dunno. I like classic rock and movies. So I probably consume some art created by assholes. But it isn’t something I’m proud of.
      - surgical_fire 3y ago
        I buy things produced by companies know to make use of slave labor and pollute the environment. I enjoy art made by people that honestly deserve to be punched in the face everyday. It's not about being proud or ashamed about anything there. If the powers that be refuse to punish people and corporations that deserve to be punished, I think it's ultimately unfair to offload that responsibility onto consumers.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > And honestly, I don't see why they should, as it does not affect them as consumers. They should care, because buying their products is telling the company that they approve of its behavior (whatever that behavior is).
  - surgical_fire 3y ago
    I vehemently disagree with this notion. In the case of Blizzard, I won't play Diablo 4 because I really think they have been making shit games for more than a decade. But I don't fault anyone that will play Diablo 4. People like what they like. The cases of abuse and harassment at Blizzard are known and well documented. If the powers that be refuse to act in order to punish the people and corporation involved, why do we offload that responsibility onto consumers?
    - shrimp_emoji 3y ago
      Diablo Immortal makes more than any other game they've made. So, the shittier something is (ethically, substantively), the more money it makes. Money really is the root of all evil. Therefore, boycotting something because it's bad makes less sense than buying it because it's bad. QED
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      I don't fault anyone for making choices different from mine. > why do we offload that responsibility onto consumers? I don't view it as offloading anything onto customers. I view it as me deciding what sort of company I'm willing to keep and what sort of behavior I'm willing to support.
    - anonymousab 3y ago
      > why do we offload that responsibility onto consumers? Giving money to a company is rewarding all of their behaviours, in aggregate. Because that's what a company is.

by Macha 3y ago

surgical_fire 3y ago

The thing is that the vast majority people just don't care about the culture of harassment in the company. And honestly, I don't see why they should, as it does not affect them as consumers. Making shit products is something that affects consumers, and they will complain about that.

Macha 3y ago
It's one thing if they don't care about the abuse, but they should be honest (including with themselves) on that. It's another to reassign the abuse to people they have different reasons to dislike.
- surgical_fire 3y ago
  That's a fair take. A lot of things I love were made my people that I find personally despicable. If I have to weight how much I like the creators and companies behind everything I consume, that will be recipe for a very tiresome and frustrating life. This is not to give a pass to Blizzard. The scandals there are pretty bad. But it's up to the employees (and perhaps to the judicial system) to do something about it.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    Some of the employees were the perpetrators, some were the victims, and some decided putting food on the table was more important than making the moral stand. Management will do as much about this as the market incentivizes them to. Ultimately the ability to produce incentives is in the hands of consumers most directly, and through the judicial system, (so, pretty indirectly) voters. I dunno. I like classic rock and movies. So I probably consume some art created by assholes. But it isn’t something I’m proud of.
    - surgical_fire 3y ago
      I buy things produced by companies know to make use of slave labor and pollute the environment. I enjoy art made by people that honestly deserve to be punched in the face everyday. It's not about being proud or ashamed about anything there. If the powers that be refuse to punish people and corporations that deserve to be punished, I think it's ultimately unfair to offload that responsibility onto consumers.
JohnFen 3y ago
> And honestly, I don't see why they should, as it does not affect them as consumers. They should care, because buying their products is telling the company that they approve of its behavior (whatever that behavior is).
- surgical_fire 3y ago
  I vehemently disagree with this notion. In the case of Blizzard, I won't play Diablo 4 because I really think they have been making shit games for more than a decade. But I don't fault anyone that will play Diablo 4. People like what they like. The cases of abuse and harassment at Blizzard are known and well documented. If the powers that be refuse to act in order to punish the people and corporation involved, why do we offload that responsibility onto consumers?
  - shrimp_emoji 3y ago
    Diablo Immortal makes more than any other game they've made. So, the shittier something is (ethically, substantively), the more money it makes. Money really is the root of all evil. Therefore, boycotting something because it's bad makes less sense than buying it because it's bad. QED
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    I don't fault anyone for making choices different from mine. > why do we offload that responsibility onto consumers? I don't view it as offloading anything onto customers. I view it as me deciding what sort of company I'm willing to keep and what sort of behavior I'm willing to support.
  - anonymousab 3y ago
    > why do we offload that responsibility onto consumers? Giving money to a company is rewarding all of their behaviours, in aggregate. Because that's what a company is.