5 ms·

"Leaky gut" is the exact same kind of pseudoscience and quackery

FollowingTheDao 3y ago
Leaky gut is not pseudoscience. It’s actually a real medical condition called intestinal permeability. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8427160/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8427160/ That’s not to say that any quack can just diagnose you with intestinal permeability without doing any tests, so I agree with you on that.
- haldujai 3y ago
  I think you may be misunderstanding this article. Intestinal permeability is not a diagnosis in this paper, they are referring to the physical permeability of the gut which can be altered in many diseases and is not in dispute (i.e. "altered gut permeability" is a symptom of a disease, not the disease itself). "Leaky (or permeable) gut syndrome" is not a recognized disease.
  - FollowingTheDao 3y ago
    No, I did not misunderstand. Having higher intestinal permeability is a disorder that causes suffering. Call it whatever you want, it increases autoimmunity issues. https://gut.bmj.com/content/55/10/1512 https://gut.bmj.com/content/55/10/1512 "increased intestinal permeability is observed in association with several autoimmune diseases. It is observed prior to disease and appears to be involved in disease pathogenesis;"
    - haldujai 3y ago
      Right, I don't think anyone doubts that altered intestinal permeability may be seen in several conditions. The etiological theory of "leaky gut" (i.e. leaky gut is the cause of disease) is not accepted in medicine. This article again suggests a theoretical mechanism that altered gut permeability is involved in the pathogenesis of an autoimmune disease and the evidence cited does not exclude the possibility of a common etiology[0], it also does not suggest the presence of a "leaky gut disorder". As an aside an association does not mean causation and in any case does not discriminate between symptom vs disorder. A fever is associated with nearly every infection, it doesn't cause it. [0]e.g. 'These studies provide intriguing data that abnormal permeability may be involved in disease pathogenesis, although they cannot exclude an alternative explanation that mild gut damage (measured by increased permeability) is associated with the development of IBS by another mechanism. ' from the IBS studies cited.
      - FollowingTheDao 3y ago
        > Right, I don't think anyone doubts that altered intestinal permeability may be seen in several conditions. Right, so leaky gut is a real issue. If it is a cause or a condition remains to be seen. But to say it is psuedoscience is invalid. You just keep moving the goal posts.
        haldujai 3y ago
        OP is referring to "leaky gut disorder" that people (quacks) will try to treat today. It is not a recognized disorder that requires or has a treatment so it is correctly classified as pseudoscience (there is no scientific basis for the treatment of an unrecognized disease). Simultaneously altered gut permeability may be seen with some disorders, significance not yet determined. I have never changed that position.
        FollowingTheDao 3y ago
        Leaky gut = intestinal permeability. Why are you so hung up on the name? I know that the quacks have no idea what they are talking about but that does not mean leaky gut does not exist, in fact they use the term all the time in medcial literature: Leaky gut: mechanisms, measurement and clinical implications in humans https://gut.bmj.com/content/68/8/1516.abstract https://gut.bmj.com/content/68/8/1516.abstract Leaky Gut, Leaky Brain? https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2607/6/4/107 https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2607/6/4/107 Leaky Gut and Autoimmune Diseases https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12016-011-8291-x https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12016-011-8291-x To say that there is no need to treat epithelial permeability is just blinding yourself to possible treatments of immune disorders. I am not saying it is right or not, but saying it is not a "recognized disorder" is not scientific at all.
        haldujai 3y ago
        It just is not a medically recognized disorder/disease/syndrome. There’s no ICD-10 code. To borrow from Wikipedia which does a better job at explaining the difference in simpler terms (and is accurate in this case): > “Leaky gut syndrome is a hypothetical, medically unrecognized condition. Unlike the scientific phenomenon of increased intestinal permeability ("leaky gut"), claims for the existence of "leaky gut syndrome" as a distinct medical condition come mostly from nutritionists and practitioners of alternative medicine. Proponents claim that a "leaky gut" causes chronic inflammation throughout the body that results in a wide range of conditions, including chronic fatigue syndrome, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, migraines, multiple sclerosis, and autism. There is little evidence to support this hypothesis.” > “Increased intestinal permeability is a factor in several diseases, such as Crohn's disease, celiac disease … allergic diseases among others. In the majority of cases, increased permeability develops prior to disease, but the cause–effect relationship between increased intestinal permeability in most of these diseases is not clear.” It is at best right now a finding of uncertain clinical significance. What is being called a disease is pseudoscience pushed by quacks. > To say that there is no need to treat epithelial permeability is just blinding yourself to possible treatments of immune disorders. That’s exactly the point. From your first link: “It is still unproven that restoring barrier function can ameliorate clinical manifestations in GI or systemic diseases.“ Because some researcher measured some values in a model or small observational study it doesn’t mean clinicians should recognize it as a disorder and consider treating it outside of a clinical trial.

Leaky gut is not pseudoscience. It’s actually a real medical condition called intestinal permeability. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8427160/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8427160/ That’s not to say that any quack can just diagnose you with intestinal permeability without doing any tests, so I agree with you on that.

haldujai 3y ago
I think you may be misunderstanding this article. Intestinal permeability is not a diagnosis in this paper, they are referring to the physical permeability of the gut which can be altered in many diseases and is not in dispute (i.e. "altered gut permeability" is a symptom of a disease, not the disease itself). "Leaky (or permeable) gut syndrome" is not a recognized disease.
- FollowingTheDao 3y ago
  No, I did not misunderstand. Having higher intestinal permeability is a disorder that causes suffering. Call it whatever you want, it increases autoimmunity issues. https://gut.bmj.com/content/55/10/1512 https://gut.bmj.com/content/55/10/1512 "increased intestinal permeability is observed in association with several autoimmune diseases. It is observed prior to disease and appears to be involved in disease pathogenesis;"
  - haldujai 3y ago
    Right, I don't think anyone doubts that altered intestinal permeability may be seen in several conditions. The etiological theory of "leaky gut" (i.e. leaky gut is the cause of disease) is not accepted in medicine. This article again suggests a theoretical mechanism that altered gut permeability is involved in the pathogenesis of an autoimmune disease and the evidence cited does not exclude the possibility of a common etiology[0], it also does not suggest the presence of a "leaky gut disorder". As an aside an association does not mean causation and in any case does not discriminate between symptom vs disorder. A fever is associated with nearly every infection, it doesn't cause it. [0]e.g. 'These studies provide intriguing data that abnormal permeability may be involved in disease pathogenesis, although they cannot exclude an alternative explanation that mild gut damage (measured by increased permeability) is associated with the development of IBS by another mechanism. ' from the IBS studies cited.
    - FollowingTheDao 3y ago
      > Right, I don't think anyone doubts that altered intestinal permeability may be seen in several conditions. Right, so leaky gut is a real issue. If it is a cause or a condition remains to be seen. But to say it is psuedoscience is invalid. You just keep moving the goal posts.
      - haldujai 3y ago
        OP is referring to "leaky gut disorder" that people (quacks) will try to treat today. It is not a recognized disorder that requires or has a treatment so it is correctly classified as pseudoscience (there is no scientific basis for the treatment of an unrecognized disease). Simultaneously altered gut permeability may be seen with some disorders, significance not yet determined. I have never changed that position.
        FollowingTheDao 3y ago
        Leaky gut = intestinal permeability. Why are you so hung up on the name? I know that the quacks have no idea what they are talking about but that does not mean leaky gut does not exist, in fact they use the term all the time in medcial literature: Leaky gut: mechanisms, measurement and clinical implications in humans https://gut.bmj.com/content/68/8/1516.abstract https://gut.bmj.com/content/68/8/1516.abstract Leaky Gut, Leaky Brain? https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2607/6/4/107 https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2607/6/4/107 Leaky Gut and Autoimmune Diseases https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12016-011-8291-x https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12016-011-8291-x To say that there is no need to treat epithelial permeability is just blinding yourself to possible treatments of immune disorders. I am not saying it is right or not, but saying it is not a "recognized disorder" is not scientific at all.
        haldujai 3y ago
        It just is not a medically recognized disorder/disease/syndrome. There’s no ICD-10 code. To borrow from Wikipedia which does a better job at explaining the difference in simpler terms (and is accurate in this case): > “Leaky gut syndrome is a hypothetical, medically unrecognized condition. Unlike the scientific phenomenon of increased intestinal permeability ("leaky gut"), claims for the existence of "leaky gut syndrome" as a distinct medical condition come mostly from nutritionists and practitioners of alternative medicine. Proponents claim that a "leaky gut" causes chronic inflammation throughout the body that results in a wide range of conditions, including chronic fatigue syndrome, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, migraines, multiple sclerosis, and autism. There is little evidence to support this hypothesis.” > “Increased intestinal permeability is a factor in several diseases, such as Crohn's disease, celiac disease … allergic diseases among others. In the majority of cases, increased permeability develops prior to disease, but the cause–effect relationship between increased intestinal permeability in most of these diseases is not clear.” It is at best right now a finding of uncertain clinical significance. What is being called a disease is pseudoscience pushed by quacks. > To say that there is no need to treat epithelial permeability is just blinding yourself to possible treatments of immune disorders. That’s exactly the point. From your first link: “It is still unproven that restoring barrier function can ameliorate clinical manifestations in GI or systemic diseases.“ Because some researcher measured some values in a model or small observational study it doesn’t mean clinicians should recognize it as a disorder and consider treating it outside of a clinical trial.