8 ms·

Show HN: Discipline.io – Make binding commitments to your better self

87 points by stri8ted 3y ago

Hi HN, It's super hard to quit addicting apps. Existing solutions are non-binding, and therefore, require constant self-discipline and vigilance to be effective. Which is ironic, considering the problem we are trying to solve, is a lack of self-discipline. There exists a physical solution to this problem, in the form of a time-locked safe[1]. It’s effective for reducing app usage, but it's cumbersome and inconvenient. Fundamentally, what these lock-boxes do is impose a real-world cost on breaking your commitment. It’s not impossible to break your commitment, but it would require destroying the lock-box, and that incurs a cost. I created a digital version of this, as an app (Android-only). Commitment’s are backed with cash deposits, and the phone API’s are used to detect violations and enforce compliance. No self-reporting required. And it even works if the monitoring app is uninstalled, or its background service disabled. An example commitment: Stop using Tinder, for the next week, or forfeit $20 to the Red Cross charity. The solution also generalizes to other types of commitments: - Commit to using an app more (e.g. meditation) - Commit to visiting a location (e.g. gym) - Commit to making a phone call (e.g. mom) It’s currently only available for Android, but I'm considering doing an IOS version as well. Hope you like it, and please share any feedback you might have in the comments! [1]: https://www.thekitchensafe.com https://www.thekitchensafe.com

anonyfox 3y ago
Thats a nice way to make me donate more money to charities I guess
- stri8ted 3y ago
  Its not a fool proof solution, but the hope is, it should significantly reduce the likelihood of breaking your commitments. I was considering supporting anti-charities (e.g. NRA, DNC etc..), but I thought that was unnecessarily distracting.
  - anonyfox 3y ago
    well I am probably kinda the hardcore target group. I can clearly spot, articulate and act on problems (like being overweight and out of shape). I go deep into the scientific (and also pseudo for fun) discussions about anything in the process, can roughly understand it, relate that to my personal situation, and make absolutely great plans how to tackle it. iE1 (body recomp): calorie counting app, tracking everything that goes in, including hydration + sleep, go into an optimized sports programme and give it all I got, keep an eye on optimal macro/micro, applying social pressure on myself... and so on, everything that might have an impact + preplanned schedules and optimized convenience factors to do the right thing, right from the start. After a few weeks, I just stop it. Doing unhealthy stuff again, ignoring all tracking/notes/plans/appointments and even handwaive the social pressure. Also initial investment (sometimes quite significant) = money factor is just something I shrug off in that mood. iE2 (building software): I have a good enough idea, sometimes even things I really desperately want for myself. I have a vast toolset of mastered tech stacks at my hands I can use right away, can setup good implementation plans, start with shipping "hello world" to production first (me being a devops many years) and iterate quickly. Also include customer journeys and marketing key points right off the gate. Code written to my personal high standards including full testsuites/coverage, clean component libraries, whatever fits, and also keeping an eye on security and performance. I don't even have to worry much about any expensive hosting/operations costs at all at this point. Still after 2 weeks max, I abandon the project... quite often with a working state that actually is good and usable (most MVPs are in a worse state, as they should). Its like no matter what I do, there are zero issues for me to research a thing and jumpstart doing it the right (as in: best effort research that looks like actually working) way, and then just stopping it after some time for no particular reason. Somehow my brain just can't be forced for an extended amount of time. Being aware of that, I also tried several things that are recommended to build up discipline, from atomic habits of different flavors to gratefulnes diaries, so far nothing worked. To give you an idea: I am not able to brush my teeth every single morning/evening as a man in my 30s, its more like 5 out of 7 days roughly. Also I have no attention shortages and can comfortably read a full book cover-to-cover nonstop, meditate or keep the focus of a full-day meeting on track with multiple persons in the room trying to derail. If someone truly had a solution that works in my case, I'd pay a high premium for that with a smiling face. So far, only failures, and a hopeless me.
- asciii 3y ago
  On the other hand, I think it's a great way to start a positive habit. Sure, maybe, one can fail on the first try but these offset the long run mindful activities to achieve more discipline. I'm not an expert or anything at this but I have appreciated the Atomic Habits book where switching your brain's focus to trying something for 5 minutes eventually overcomes the barrier to not doing it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
dhruvkaran 3y ago
Does it allow bitcoin lightning channels for commitments?
- stri8ted 3y ago
  I was initially thinking about doing it crypto-based, but that makes onboarding and the UX more challenging. A fee-less solution like LN could make sense.
purerandomness 3y ago
This sounds like something Beeminder [1] is doing since 2011, have you heard of them? They have a huge community and tools ecosystem. You might also want to check the Awesome List "Quantified Self" [2] if you like these kind of tools. [1] https://www.beeminder.com/overview https://www.beeminder.com/overview [2] https://github.com/woop/awesome-quantified-self https://github.com/woop/awesome-quantified-self
- stri8ted 3y ago
  Yep. The key difference is, the deposit here is taken before the commitment is resolved. And there is no self-reporting needed. So its 100% fire and forget.
underyx 3y ago
The incumbent in this space is https://www.beeminder.com https://www.beeminder.com where the specific use case shown here about screen time can be configured with e.g. their RescueTime integration. Beeminder however just take your money for themselves as opposed to giving it to charity. They claim people would otherwise be more prone to giving up on their goals, thinking "oh well, the money is going to charity anyway so I'm doing a good thing by breaking my commitment". The opposite approach would be setting it up so the money goes to an organization whose goals you disagree with.
- stri8ted 3y ago
  I do hear that. But it seems to me, having the company take the deposit creates perverse incentives, e.g. the company is basically betting on the user breaking their commitment. A key difference also is, by requiring the deposit before resolving the commitment, it removes the escape hatch of just canceling your credit-card. It also generalizes to any app on the platform. I was considering supporting anti-charities (e.g. NRA, DNC etc..), but I thought that was unnecessarily distracting.
  - mbork_pl 3y ago
    Long-time Beeminder user here. You are theoretically right, but I don't think it works like this in practice. I've never had a problem with declaring that they should not charge me, and the charge was always canceled if that was TRT. As for the escape hatch: true, but the counterargument by Beeminder people is that you basically cheat yourself then, so what would the point be? In fact, I have many "goals" on Beeminder where I enter data manually, so it's based on a honor system – and I don't think I'm the only one. As for the anti-charities: this is a terrible, terrible idea from moral point of view. Much worse than just "distracting". If I agree (even conditionally) to donate money to an evil cause, I am just committing evil right now. Why would I want to do it?
- 1123581321 3y ago
  While Beeminder does collect when you fail, they make their money from people maintaining premium subscriptions for custom goals and other features. Curiously, one of the premium features is the ability to skip over the small penalties and start at a financial commitment that's too painful for you to let happen. Another premium feature is that some of the money goes to charity. They're dancing with perversity but they make so much more money if their system works for you for a long time.
sledgehammers 3y ago
>is a lack of self-discipline Hmm, maybe there is something to say about the addiction capitalism?? You cannot place the blame on individual here. This is a societal level problem. This is a failure of democracy to recognize and address the problem. Greed and bad incentives are the problems, again. They are causing massive destruction, again.
- stri8ted 3y ago
  I think its more about a mismatch between our evolutionary past, and the modern environment. No different from junk food. Stimuli that would be adaptive in our prehistoric environment, is no longer so, but still triggers the same reward mechanisms. e.g. Seeing pictures of people on a social media app.
  - sledgehammers 3y ago
    Yeah, we need a bigger fix. Your work definitely has a part to play, to help people get rid of the addiction. So I'm definitely supportive - let's just keep the blame where it belongs, so it can be fixed at the core. :)
  - dumpsterlid 3y ago
    [dead]
- sledgehammers 3y ago
  Zuckerberg et al downvoting an inconvenient truth? ;) Mark: fuck you.
- zuiper 3y ago
  Agreed, it would make me so miserable to stack another failure on top of previous failures and the self-esteem loss that creates.
teeray 3y ago
I love that you explicitly call out how you make money and that it is not a percentage of deposits. Being up-front about that is refreshing. Suggestion: a large portion of folks looking to use this app would like to do so to achieve fitness goals. The simplest possible integration with HealthKit may be closing your exercise rings. It’s general enough to not require integrating with specific vendor APIs, but is still fairly difficult to fake it. It may be a good MVP goal.
- stri8ted 3y ago
  Agreed re fitness tracking. I have been thinking about that.
goodpoint 3y ago
I commit to not using yet another app.
mparnisari 3y ago
So we need another app to quit an app? :P
drewda 3y ago
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic
candiddevmike 3y ago
For folks with any kind of OCD or negative self talk, this kind of app would be hell for them. The last thing they need is a real consequence for not doing something correctly. Learning to accept that using these apps will happen and understanding why you want to use these apps is may be more valuable.
- graypegg 3y ago
  I mean… the consequence is you donate to a charity you chose. The stakes are pretty low, but just high enough to get you to think about it. I like the idea!
suketk 3y ago
As a peer[1] in the habit-building space, there are so many things I love about this: * No self-reporting. I can attest this a huge source of friction for users. * Aligned business model. I also donate 100% of penalties to charity. It's shocking how many accountability apps are incentivized for you to fail. * External accountability. It's an underrated tool and I'm glad it's gaining more recognition. However, I think there's also such a thing as too much accountability. Life comes in the way and people won't always hit their goals. When you penalize failure, you penalize trying. Instead, it's better to encourage learning from failure. That's why I impose compassionate accountability. You're only required to check in on your goals, not succeed at them. This way, you can fight through the problem instead of giving up the moment you fail. Here's a recent example from Habit Gym that illustrates this quite well. It's a user trying to quit smoking - they start off slow, but pick up momentum quickly because they learned from their mistakes. https://i.imgur.com/1eiZEMy.png https://i.imgur.com/1eiZEMy.png Just my two cents! Good luck with your app! [1] https://www.thehabitgym.com/programs/daily https://www.thehabitgym.com/programs/daily
- kosciCZ 3y ago
  Hey, is there a problem with accepting new registrations (and joining the waitlist)? I get "The change you wanted was rejected." for anything I try to submit.
  - suketk 3y ago
    I don't think so, there have been registrations since your comment. If you're still having trouble, feel free to email me@suketk.com.
- balaji1 3y ago
  just today I had an idea - pick up the book I'm reading whenever I hit HN or other SM. A book is just a better distraction (: Anyway, good luck to all trying to fight distractions!
kylecazar 3y ago
I really like the idea. Sadly -- things like this don't seem to work for me. I either have the discipline to hold myself to something, or I just figure it wasn't that important to me after all.
sirjaz 3y ago
You need to make a Windows version of the app. More Windows devices than all iOS and MacOS devices put together.
pictur 3y ago
weird. did this idea come out of a joke among friends?
dreeves 3y ago
Congrats on the launch! I think this is powerful and handles the use cases you've listed better than Beeminder can currently. So that's exciting for us -- we love worthy competitors! Speaking of which, here's a list of all such competitors we know of: https://blog.beeminder.com/competitors/ https://blog.beeminder.com/competitors/ (Adding Discipline.io to the list now...)
edwardipaguilar 3y ago
This seems like a great idea -- i've seen tons of these types of companies in the past, but this appears the be the first that solved the verification problem with phone APIs. Perhaps syncing up to fitbit/apple watch metrics and other health devices could introduce more functionality? Can't wait to see how it grows!

87 points by stri8ted 3y ago

anonyfox 3y ago

Thats a nice way to make me donate more money to charities I guess

stri8ted 3y ago
Its not a fool proof solution, but the hope is, it should significantly reduce the likelihood of breaking your commitments. I was considering supporting anti-charities (e.g. NRA, DNC etc..), but I thought that was unnecessarily distracting.
- anonyfox 3y ago
  well I am probably kinda the hardcore target group. I can clearly spot, articulate and act on problems (like being overweight and out of shape). I go deep into the scientific (and also pseudo for fun) discussions about anything in the process, can roughly understand it, relate that to my personal situation, and make absolutely great plans how to tackle it. iE1 (body recomp): calorie counting app, tracking everything that goes in, including hydration + sleep, go into an optimized sports programme and give it all I got, keep an eye on optimal macro/micro, applying social pressure on myself... and so on, everything that might have an impact + preplanned schedules and optimized convenience factors to do the right thing, right from the start. After a few weeks, I just stop it. Doing unhealthy stuff again, ignoring all tracking/notes/plans/appointments and even handwaive the social pressure. Also initial investment (sometimes quite significant) = money factor is just something I shrug off in that mood. iE2 (building software): I have a good enough idea, sometimes even things I really desperately want for myself. I have a vast toolset of mastered tech stacks at my hands I can use right away, can setup good implementation plans, start with shipping "hello world" to production first (me being a devops many years) and iterate quickly. Also include customer journeys and marketing key points right off the gate. Code written to my personal high standards including full testsuites/coverage, clean component libraries, whatever fits, and also keeping an eye on security and performance. I don't even have to worry much about any expensive hosting/operations costs at all at this point. Still after 2 weeks max, I abandon the project... quite often with a working state that actually is good and usable (most MVPs are in a worse state, as they should). Its like no matter what I do, there are zero issues for me to research a thing and jumpstart doing it the right (as in: best effort research that looks like actually working) way, and then just stopping it after some time for no particular reason. Somehow my brain just can't be forced for an extended amount of time. Being aware of that, I also tried several things that are recommended to build up discipline, from atomic habits of different flavors to gratefulnes diaries, so far nothing worked. To give you an idea: I am not able to brush my teeth every single morning/evening as a man in my 30s, its more like 5 out of 7 days roughly. Also I have no attention shortages and can comfortably read a full book cover-to-cover nonstop, meditate or keep the focus of a full-day meeting on track with multiple persons in the room trying to derail. If someone truly had a solution that works in my case, I'd pay a high premium for that with a smiling face. So far, only failures, and a hopeless me.
asciii 3y ago
On the other hand, I think it's a great way to start a positive habit. Sure, maybe, one can fail on the first try but these offset the long run mindful activities to achieve more discipline. I'm not an expert or anything at this but I have appreciated the Atomic Habits book where switching your brain's focus to trying something for 5 minutes eventually overcomes the barrier to not doing it.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

dhruvkaran 3y ago

Does it allow bitcoin lightning channels for commitments?

stri8ted 3y ago
I was initially thinking about doing it crypto-based, but that makes onboarding and the UX more challenging. A fee-less solution like LN could make sense.

purerandomness 3y ago

This sounds like something Beeminder [1] is doing since 2011, have you heard of them? They have a huge community and tools ecosystem. You might also want to check the Awesome List "Quantified Self" [2] if you like these kind of tools. [1] https://www.beeminder.com/overview https://www.beeminder.com/overview [2] https://github.com/woop/awesome-quantified-self https://github.com/woop/awesome-quantified-self

stri8ted 3y ago
Yep. The key difference is, the deposit here is taken before the commitment is resolved. And there is no self-reporting needed. So its 100% fire and forget.

underyx 3y ago

The incumbent in this space is https://www.beeminder.com https://www.beeminder.com where the specific use case shown here about screen time can be configured with e.g. their RescueTime integration. Beeminder however just take your money for themselves as opposed to giving it to charity. They claim people would otherwise be more prone to giving up on their goals, thinking "oh well, the money is going to charity anyway so I'm doing a good thing by breaking my commitment". The opposite approach would be setting it up so the money goes to an organization whose goals you disagree with.

stri8ted 3y ago
I do hear that. But it seems to me, having the company take the deposit creates perverse incentives, e.g. the company is basically betting on the user breaking their commitment. A key difference also is, by requiring the deposit before resolving the commitment, it removes the escape hatch of just canceling your credit-card. It also generalizes to any app on the platform. I was considering supporting anti-charities (e.g. NRA, DNC etc..), but I thought that was unnecessarily distracting.
- mbork_pl 3y ago
  Long-time Beeminder user here. You are theoretically right, but I don't think it works like this in practice. I've never had a problem with declaring that they should not charge me, and the charge was always canceled if that was TRT. As for the escape hatch: true, but the counterargument by Beeminder people is that you basically cheat yourself then, so what would the point be? In fact, I have many "goals" on Beeminder where I enter data manually, so it's based on a honor system – and I don't think I'm the only one. As for the anti-charities: this is a terrible, terrible idea from moral point of view. Much worse than just "distracting". If I agree (even conditionally) to donate money to an evil cause, I am just committing evil right now. Why would I want to do it?
1123581321 3y ago
While Beeminder does collect when you fail, they make their money from people maintaining premium subscriptions for custom goals and other features. Curiously, one of the premium features is the ability to skip over the small penalties and start at a financial commitment that's too painful for you to let happen. Another premium feature is that some of the money goes to charity. They're dancing with perversity but they make so much more money if their system works for you for a long time.

sledgehammers 3y ago

>is a lack of self-discipline Hmm, maybe there is something to say about the addiction capitalism?? You cannot place the blame on individual here. This is a societal level problem. This is a failure of democracy to recognize and address the problem. Greed and bad incentives are the problems, again. They are causing massive destruction, again.

stri8ted 3y ago
I think its more about a mismatch between our evolutionary past, and the modern environment. No different from junk food. Stimuli that would be adaptive in our prehistoric environment, is no longer so, but still triggers the same reward mechanisms. e.g. Seeing pictures of people on a social media app.
- sledgehammers 3y ago
  Yeah, we need a bigger fix. Your work definitely has a part to play, to help people get rid of the addiction. So I'm definitely supportive - let's just keep the blame where it belongs, so it can be fixed at the core. :)
- dumpsterlid 3y ago
  [dead]
sledgehammers 3y ago
Zuckerberg et al downvoting an inconvenient truth? ;) Mark: fuck you.
zuiper 3y ago
Agreed, it would make me so miserable to stack another failure on top of previous failures and the self-esteem loss that creates.

teeray 3y ago

I love that you explicitly call out how you make money and that it is not a percentage of deposits. Being up-front about that is refreshing. Suggestion: a large portion of folks looking to use this app would like to do so to achieve fitness goals. The simplest possible integration with HealthKit may be closing your exercise rings. It’s general enough to not require integrating with specific vendor APIs, but is still fairly difficult to fake it. It may be a good MVP goal.

stri8ted 3y ago
Agreed re fitness tracking. I have been thinking about that.

goodpoint 3y ago

I commit to not using yet another app.

mparnisari 3y ago

So we need another app to quit an app? :P

drewda 3y ago

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic

candiddevmike 3y ago

For folks with any kind of OCD or negative self talk, this kind of app would be hell for them. The last thing they need is a real consequence for not doing something correctly. Learning to accept that using these apps will happen and understanding why you want to use these apps is may be more valuable.

graypegg 3y ago
I mean… the consequence is you donate to a charity you chose. The stakes are pretty low, but just high enough to get you to think about it. I like the idea!

suketk 3y ago

As a peer[1] in the habit-building space, there are so many things I love about this: * No self-reporting. I can attest this a huge source of friction for users. * Aligned business model. I also donate 100% of penalties to charity. It's shocking how many accountability apps are incentivized for you to fail. * External accountability. It's an underrated tool and I'm glad it's gaining more recognition. However, I think there's also such a thing as too much accountability. Life comes in the way and people won't always hit their goals. When you penalize failure, you penalize trying. Instead, it's better to encourage learning from failure. That's why I impose compassionate accountability. You're only required to check in on your goals, not succeed at them. This way, you can fight through the problem instead of giving up the moment you fail. Here's a recent example from Habit Gym that illustrates this quite well. It's a user trying to quit smoking - they start off slow, but pick up momentum quickly because they learned from their mistakes. https://i.imgur.com/1eiZEMy.png https://i.imgur.com/1eiZEMy.png Just my two cents! Good luck with your app! [1] https://www.thehabitgym.com/programs/daily https://www.thehabitgym.com/programs/daily

kosciCZ 3y ago
Hey, is there a problem with accepting new registrations (and joining the waitlist)? I get "The change you wanted was rejected." for anything I try to submit.
- suketk 3y ago
  I don't think so, there have been registrations since your comment. If you're still having trouble, feel free to email me@suketk.com.
balaji1 3y ago
just today I had an idea - pick up the book I'm reading whenever I hit HN or other SM. A book is just a better distraction (: Anyway, good luck to all trying to fight distractions!

kylecazar 3y ago

I really like the idea. Sadly -- things like this don't seem to work for me. I either have the discipline to hold myself to something, or I just figure it wasn't that important to me after all.

sirjaz 3y ago

You need to make a Windows version of the app. More Windows devices than all iOS and MacOS devices put together.

pictur 3y ago

weird. did this idea come out of a joke among friends?

dreeves 3y ago

Congrats on the launch! I think this is powerful and handles the use cases you've listed better than Beeminder can currently. So that's exciting for us -- we love worthy competitors! Speaking of which, here's a list of all such competitors we know of: https://blog.beeminder.com/competitors/ https://blog.beeminder.com/competitors/ (Adding Discipline.io to the list now...)

edwardipaguilar 3y ago

This seems like a great idea -- i've seen tons of these types of companies in the past, but this appears the be the first that solved the verification problem with phone APIs. Perhaps syncing up to fitbit/apple watch metrics and other health devices could introduce more functionality? Can't wait to see how it grows!