8 ms·

This is an edge case. Marines in particular, and the military members in general, will form a special bond that can seldom be duplicated elsewhere. And that has

by BJBBB 3y ago

This is an edge case. Marines in particular, and the military members in general, will form a special bond that can seldom be duplicated elsewhere. And that has been my experience. I was among a group of six that met at the schoolhouse after boot camp. We did not get sent to the same units, but we were all PCS'd to the same base. Two of us (not myself) made a career of the corps, and the others went to school after separation to get various STEM degrees; all four of us attended two schools within 60 km. After graduation, our physical distance slowly increased with each new job, but we never stopped talking to each other and typically met in person one to five times per year. The singular spouse that accepted our special friendships and our strong sense of mutual loyalty to each other, is the marriage that endured over the last 35 years. My wife is very special to me. She is the center of my immediate world. But these, now five, friends would have been there to pick me up if my wife had ever kicked me to the curb. Epilogue. The five of us are now, at least, semi-retired. The other four are now single. Three of them are building another house on my property in which to live out the remainder of their time. They have accepted my wife is the sixth member and as a 'principle'. Our only recurring issue is which of the six will have to die alone.

willio58 3y ago
Externally, it seems this bond could be explained by: 1. Everyone is together, away from distractions, and unable to leave easily for months on end 2. You are working toward shared goals 3. You are friendly toward each other It's a recipe for a strong bond. Another example of this is famous bands. They're constantly traveling for work, together, trying to write more music and become more famous as they go.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  I think it's more than that, it's the extreme psychological and physical challenge of going through boot camp together. I have not gone through it but understand it to be beyond anything a "normal" person ever experiences. This bonds people in a way that's closer than ordinary friendship or in many cases closer than even biological brotherhood.
- maerF0x0 3y ago
  I'd extend the shared goals bit to include difficulty. Physically challenging, life risking, risk of failure etc... I've seen far too many "team bonding" setups fit all 3 of your criteria, but fail dismally to result in bonding.
  - bumby 3y ago
    Out of curiosity, what's the context of those team bonding exercises? I'm curious if the failure is due to short duration and knowing you can revert back to your normal mode in a few days. Humans are creatures of habit, after all, and I don't think what I see in most corporate team-bonding exercises is enough to overcome that in most people.
    - maerF0x0 3y ago
      > unable to leave easily for months on end Ah yeah, i think i missed this on first pass. Yes they were typically < 1 week.
- bumby 3y ago
  >You are friendly toward each other Many civilians are aghast when they see how Marines act toward one another. The constant shit-talking and physical fighting probably wouldn't be described as "friendly" but definitely "brotherly"
  - KineticLensman 3y ago
    The way I've heard it described in the British Army is "We will laugh if you fall down but we will help you up"
vorpalhex 3y ago
> Our only recurring issue is which of the six will have to die alone. Hire someone. I'm not kidding. Hire someone as a nurse/caretaker/doula now, integrate them into the group, and then you've solved your remainder problem. You can use a trust to pay them out on the death of the last member of the group. Think of it like anti-loneliness insurance. Even if you're the last one standing, you'll have someone to chat with and play cards with who you've known for years.
- noizejoy 3y ago
  > Hire someone. There's no guarantee that the such hired individual will outlive the last of the original six - or that their life priorities won't change.
  - vorpalhex 3y ago
    No but usually people in their eg 40s outlive people in their 60s. Life is risk.
0xr0kk3r 3y ago
"seldom duplicated elsewhere" I hear this same sentiment from marines, cops, fireman, and fraternity members. I also hear it from Masons, Elks, Shriners, etc. I don't understand why men have to think they've "discovered" something about lifelong bonds that is exclusive to just men's clubs. My guess is that men are taught not to have strong emotional bonds with anyone but their mothers or wives, and then think it is something magical when they are allowed to have these feelings under the guise of life-threatening situations, or secular drinking clubs.
- ISL 3y ago
  For each person, finding those bonds is a remarkable and life-changing event.
  - WorldMaker 3y ago
    Yeah, for a lot of people finding good friends is always a life-changing event no matter the outer circumstances surrounding that bonding. The interesting part of the discussion though is how often those bonds are misattributed to causation from the concomitant circumstances (violence, special secretive clubs) as opposed to correlation and just raw, "boring" proximity. The general loss of consistent "third places" to encourage proximity among potential friends somewhat makes it seem even more "causitive" that people (especially those socialized under today's idea of masculinity) misattribute the wonder of forming a new friend bond to "requiring" ugly circumstances such as shared violence or special secretive clubs, rather than just being a healthy and natural outcome of social proximity (and emotional "closeness") among our aggressively social species that doesn't need to be forced through pain or sweat or hazing or forced philanthropy or secret handshakes.
- skipants 3y ago
  I think you're just over-analyzing the words a bit. When I hear someone say "seldom duplicated elsewhere" I don't think they're convinced it's unique all throughout the world. They know there are millions of other soldiers out there who make similar bonds. They just mean seldom duplicated with other people within their own lives.
- 3y ago
red_admiral 3y ago
This used to be much more common, for men too. You don't have to go too far back in history to find a time when intense male friendships were not at all unusual, complete with holding hands and writing love letters to each other. Of course, some of these were gay relationships, hiding in plain sight pretending to be socially acceptable non-sexual intense male friendships. But gays wouldn't have been able to hide that way if the concept of a socially acceptable intense male friendship hadn't existed in the first place! Maybe the Marines and the like are the few holdouts in modern society where this really positive part of pre-modern masculinity is still alive and well.
- stcroixx 3y ago
  Is it really positive in today's context though? When OP said only one spouse out of this whole group accepted these special friendships, I'm guessing that the time spent maintaining these kinds of friendships is getting in the way of marriages. If hardly any women will stay married to a guy with friendships like this, that's kind of a problem if he wants to be married.
  - bumby 3y ago
    Given the benefits of cultivating social circles and the risk we see in those who don't have a good social circle as they age, it's probably positive.* The "getting in the way of marriages" may be true, but only in the context of how we've changed our definition of what a marriage should be. One argument is that it's a relatively new phenomenon that we look to our marital partner to be the end-all-be-all of our social circle. There is a modern expectation that our partner is our best friend, confidant, partner in raising children, sexual companion, and everything else under the social sun. I'm not sure that's entirely healthy, especially when a marriage fails. * side note: I don't think most of the veteran suicide that we see is how we tend to mentally internalize it as a troubled veteran returning from a fresh deployment. The average age is close to 60, meaning these are veterans who have been out for awhile. I suspect the lack of social community, particularly as they age and no longer have the typical social aspects like work to define a social circle, may be part of the issue.
- 3y ago

by BJBBB 3y ago

willio58 3y ago

Externally, it seems this bond could be explained by: 1. Everyone is together, away from distractions, and unable to leave easily for months on end 2. You are working toward shared goals 3. You are friendly toward each other It's a recipe for a strong bond. Another example of this is famous bands. They're constantly traveling for work, together, trying to write more music and become more famous as they go.

SoftTalker 3y ago
I think it's more than that, it's the extreme psychological and physical challenge of going through boot camp together. I have not gone through it but understand it to be beyond anything a "normal" person ever experiences. This bonds people in a way that's closer than ordinary friendship or in many cases closer than even biological brotherhood.
maerF0x0 3y ago
I'd extend the shared goals bit to include difficulty. Physically challenging, life risking, risk of failure etc... I've seen far too many "team bonding" setups fit all 3 of your criteria, but fail dismally to result in bonding.
- bumby 3y ago
  Out of curiosity, what's the context of those team bonding exercises? I'm curious if the failure is due to short duration and knowing you can revert back to your normal mode in a few days. Humans are creatures of habit, after all, and I don't think what I see in most corporate team-bonding exercises is enough to overcome that in most people.
  - maerF0x0 3y ago
    > unable to leave easily for months on end Ah yeah, i think i missed this on first pass. Yes they were typically < 1 week.
bumby 3y ago
>You are friendly toward each other Many civilians are aghast when they see how Marines act toward one another. The constant shit-talking and physical fighting probably wouldn't be described as "friendly" but definitely "brotherly"
- KineticLensman 3y ago
  The way I've heard it described in the British Army is "We will laugh if you fall down but we will help you up"

vorpalhex 3y ago

> Our only recurring issue is which of the six will have to die alone. Hire someone. I'm not kidding. Hire someone as a nurse/caretaker/doula now, integrate them into the group, and then you've solved your remainder problem. You can use a trust to pay them out on the death of the last member of the group. Think of it like anti-loneliness insurance. Even if you're the last one standing, you'll have someone to chat with and play cards with who you've known for years.

noizejoy 3y ago
> Hire someone. There's no guarantee that the such hired individual will outlive the last of the original six - or that their life priorities won't change.
- vorpalhex 3y ago
  No but usually people in their eg 40s outlive people in their 60s. Life is risk.

0xr0kk3r 3y ago

"seldom duplicated elsewhere" I hear this same sentiment from marines, cops, fireman, and fraternity members. I also hear it from Masons, Elks, Shriners, etc. I don't understand why men have to think they've "discovered" something about lifelong bonds that is exclusive to just men's clubs. My guess is that men are taught not to have strong emotional bonds with anyone but their mothers or wives, and then think it is something magical when they are allowed to have these feelings under the guise of life-threatening situations, or secular drinking clubs.

ISL 3y ago
For each person, finding those bonds is a remarkable and life-changing event.
- WorldMaker 3y ago
  Yeah, for a lot of people finding good friends is always a life-changing event no matter the outer circumstances surrounding that bonding. The interesting part of the discussion though is how often those bonds are misattributed to causation from the concomitant circumstances (violence, special secretive clubs) as opposed to correlation and just raw, "boring" proximity. The general loss of consistent "third places" to encourage proximity among potential friends somewhat makes it seem even more "causitive" that people (especially those socialized under today's idea of masculinity) misattribute the wonder of forming a new friend bond to "requiring" ugly circumstances such as shared violence or special secretive clubs, rather than just being a healthy and natural outcome of social proximity (and emotional "closeness") among our aggressively social species that doesn't need to be forced through pain or sweat or hazing or forced philanthropy or secret handshakes.
skipants 3y ago
I think you're just over-analyzing the words a bit. When I hear someone say "seldom duplicated elsewhere" I don't think they're convinced it's unique all throughout the world. They know there are millions of other soldiers out there who make similar bonds. They just mean seldom duplicated with other people within their own lives.
3y ago

red_admiral 3y ago

This used to be much more common, for men too. You don't have to go too far back in history to find a time when intense male friendships were not at all unusual, complete with holding hands and writing love letters to each other. Of course, some of these were gay relationships, hiding in plain sight pretending to be socially acceptable non-sexual intense male friendships. But gays wouldn't have been able to hide that way if the concept of a socially acceptable intense male friendship hadn't existed in the first place! Maybe the Marines and the like are the few holdouts in modern society where this really positive part of pre-modern masculinity is still alive and well.

stcroixx 3y ago
Is it really positive in today's context though? When OP said only one spouse out of this whole group accepted these special friendships, I'm guessing that the time spent maintaining these kinds of friendships is getting in the way of marriages. If hardly any women will stay married to a guy with friendships like this, that's kind of a problem if he wants to be married.
- bumby 3y ago
  Given the benefits of cultivating social circles and the risk we see in those who don't have a good social circle as they age, it's probably positive.* The "getting in the way of marriages" may be true, but only in the context of how we've changed our definition of what a marriage should be. One argument is that it's a relatively new phenomenon that we look to our marital partner to be the end-all-be-all of our social circle. There is a modern expectation that our partner is our best friend, confidant, partner in raising children, sexual companion, and everything else under the social sun. I'm not sure that's entirely healthy, especially when a marriage fails. * side note: I don't think most of the veteran suicide that we see is how we tend to mentally internalize it as a troubled veteran returning from a fresh deployment. The average age is close to 60, meaning these are veterans who have been out for awhile. I suspect the lack of social community, particularly as they age and no longer have the typical social aspects like work to define a social circle, may be part of the issue.
3y ago