6 ms·

You can't optimize for rest (2021)

93 points by headalgorithm 3y ago

drooby 3y ago
Interesting read. Though I can’t see how the general claim is true, “you can’t optimize for rest”.. Surely, you can. Many people do. It’s called FIRE.
- truculent 3y ago
  No. They are optimising for financial independence. They may use that to rest, but they may use it for travel, community projects, time with family. Not necessarily restful activities.
  - drooby 3y ago
    > They are optimising for financial independence. And WHY exactly would someone do that? So that they don't _have to_ work. Optimizing for rest does not mean resting 100% of the time. That will also lead to depression. IMO, optimizing for rest means having the freedom to work or rest as much as you need to be happy. Financial freedom provides that because one can choose to work or rest whenever they desire. Perhaps this is a dispute over the definition of rest.
    - xboxnolifes 3y ago
      Rest is not an antonym of "employed". Just because you aren't working toward money, doesn't mean you are resting.
- alfalfasprout 3y ago
  Yeah and it's at the expense of QOL for the younger years of your life.
- ok_dad 3y ago
  I think a better title might have been "Society can't optimize for rest". FIRE is a myth, only a small percentage of people will ever have the ability and means to do it. A few can optimize for their own rest, on the backs of the rest of us who cannot and will have to work until close to death. I think the only way you optimize society for rest on the whole would be to determine how much and what kind of time off humans need at the maxima, and then figure out how to schedule humans for the work that cannot be automated based on that. Suppose a human needs to have a month of time off per 6 months of 20 hour a week work, then we should assume no human can work for more than 20 hours a week 10 months a year, minus some other safety margin. I don't think there is ever going to be a day where society is able to optimize for rest to the extent that it's really needed, the pendulum will never swing as far as it needs to.
  - UncleOxidant 3y ago
    > FIRE is a myth, only a small percentage of people will ever have the ability and means to do it And many of the early proponents of FIRE have been going back to work. Recently, Financial Samurai posted that he was going to return to work for various reasons (one being he's going to have to save up to pay for his kid's education).
    - nathants 3y ago
      fire may be a myth, but rest is occasional remote work, heloc, section 121, and moving every 2 years. usa only. ymmv. housing go brrr.
      - jgauth 3y ago
        Can you describe more what you mean? Are you suggesting one could live by selling their home and purchasing a new one every 2 years, and doing something with credit secured by the home(s)? How does that relate to rest?
        Izkata 3y ago
        The last part hints they're probably just mocking that viewpoint, it's a reference to https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/money-printer-go-brrr https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/money-printer-go-brrr
- majormajor 3y ago
  Even for shallow definitions of "rest" vs the deeper dive the article attempts I think that's only so true. Work or financial need are not the only sources of unrest in live. If you have a partner, is that more or less restful? If you have children, is that more or less restful? Is living in a city more or less restful than on a farm? I think the answers to these questions oscillate frequently over the course of one's life in the modern world.
  - necovek 3y ago
    I'd even go as far to say that they "oscillate" daily and hourly. One hour, it's restful that I've got a loving wife and kids, and the other, it's hard work ;-) The point of rest and restful moments is to have enough of them, and certainly more than the non-restful ones.
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago
  For most people, that involves working until they reach retirement age. For most people, working their ass off isn't working; they will never reach financial independence no matter how much they work, or they will never reach a point where they're content. Then they hit burn-out, and wonder how it came to this. Seriously, chill out. It's fine to have side projects or to keep building up your career or whatever, but you need the rest as well. Think of it this way, you can't perform well if you don't take care of yourself; this means rest, sleep, eat, and enjoy.
basicallybones 3y ago
Optimizing for anxiety minimization and joy/meaning maximization is a pretty good alternative. I think it is a good way to be an admirable, productive person without burning yourself out to please others.
- atleastoptimal 3y ago
  I maximize for my enemies' pain
  - glitchc 3y ago
    Does it maximize your pain too?
    - marcosdumay 3y ago
      Well, you can't optimize for 2 goals...
      - omginternets 3y ago
        Yes you can. It’s called multivariate optimization. I suspect you are confusing this with the idea that you can always optimize one variable further than two.
    - hangsi 3y ago
      "Irrelevant!"
    - antognini 3y ago
      It's easy to do if you are your own worst enemy.
  - commandlinefan 3y ago
    I assume you're joking... but it's hard to miss how much of corporate life becomes a game of chicken where managers try to find how hard they can push workers before the workers push back - or, to what extent workers will sacrifice rest and their own well-being for continued employment. Of course, the manager has a manager who's pushing them, too.
commandlinefan 3y ago
I got about halfway through, wondering, "how is he going to tie all of this into HTTP-based API calls?" before I realized he was talking about actual rest.
- dboreham 3y ago
  Same thought. Although also tutting at the lack of capitalization.
- re-thc 3y ago
  Couldn’t find any json either
  - tpoacher 3y ago
    Not enough jquery
kazinator 3y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago
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solatic 3y ago
Author's lens is of work vs. rest, and sure enough, robots will always beat humans at work. Except that not all work is robotic. Sure, profits can be found in the rote optimization of process until the final result is made available through mass production for an affordable price; such optimization for process trends towards robotic optimization. But profit can also be found in the boutique, the artisan; a focus on quality and all other factors be damned, where the labor of love is self-inspiring and self-rejuvenating. Arguably, one's aim early in life should be to find for oneself labor that is so characterized - boutique, internally motivated, and capable of ekeing out a profit.
- chromoblob 3y ago
  I'm sure that quality will be modeled mathematically and optimized for as well
- badpun 3y ago
  > Arguably, one's aim early in life should be to find for oneself labor that is so characterized - boutique, internally motivated, and capable of ekeing out a profit. This is a very modern and American take on work. Through history, work was despised and avoided whenever possible. Under that framework, the goal of the early life would be to find out a line of work which allows you to work as little as possible. Which is basically the goal of the FIRE movement.
  - ppsreejith 3y ago
    Excluding the profit motive, different cultures had different ideals about work and not all despised/avoided work. One interpretation from the Gita is to find purposeful labor that is motivated by our inner divinity. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1394795-you-have-the-right-to-work-but-for-the-work-s https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1394795-you-have-the-right-... > You have the right to work, but for the work's sake only. You have no right to the fruits of work. Desire for the fruits of work must never be your motive in working. Never give way to laziness, either. > Perform every action with you heart fixed on the Supreme Lord. Renounce attachment to the fruits. Be even-tempered in success and failure: for it is this evenness of temper which is meant by yoga. > Work done with anxiety about results is far inferior to work done without such anxiety, in the calm of self-surrender. Seek refuge in the knowledge of Brahma. They who work selfishly for results are miserable.
leobg 3y ago
The article is insightful. But how serious can you take the author when it’s framed by calls to “subscribe” and “share”? What is that if not the “automatic drains” the author talks about. He writes that there’s “a tendency to carry into our efforts to find rest the very same spirit which animates the system that left us tired and burnt out”. Isn’t that precisely what he is doing with this newsletter?
iku 3y ago
Apalled to see to many people in the comments not getting the point of the article. You can't optimize because optimizing (for whatever) is an effort, not rest; it undermines the point of rest. It points to the deeply engrained way we (humans, collectively) think, as if rest (or inner peace, or relaxation) was a project, a goal to achieve, or at least a to do item.
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93 points by headalgorithm 3y ago

Interesting read. Though I can’t see how the general claim is true, “you can’t optimize for rest”.. Surely, you can. Many people do. It’s called FIRE.

truculent 3y ago
No. They are optimising for financial independence. They may use that to rest, but they may use it for travel, community projects, time with family. Not necessarily restful activities.
- drooby 3y ago
  > They are optimising for financial independence. And WHY exactly would someone do that? So that they don't _have to_ work. Optimizing for rest does not mean resting 100% of the time. That will also lead to depression. IMO, optimizing for rest means having the freedom to work or rest as much as you need to be happy. Financial freedom provides that because one can choose to work or rest whenever they desire. Perhaps this is a dispute over the definition of rest.
  - xboxnolifes 3y ago
    Rest is not an antonym of "employed". Just because you aren't working toward money, doesn't mean you are resting.
alfalfasprout 3y ago
Yeah and it's at the expense of QOL for the younger years of your life.
ok_dad 3y ago
I think a better title might have been "Society can't optimize for rest". FIRE is a myth, only a small percentage of people will ever have the ability and means to do it. A few can optimize for their own rest, on the backs of the rest of us who cannot and will have to work until close to death. I think the only way you optimize society for rest on the whole would be to determine how much and what kind of time off humans need at the maxima, and then figure out how to schedule humans for the work that cannot be automated based on that. Suppose a human needs to have a month of time off per 6 months of 20 hour a week work, then we should assume no human can work for more than 20 hours a week 10 months a year, minus some other safety margin. I don't think there is ever going to be a day where society is able to optimize for rest to the extent that it's really needed, the pendulum will never swing as far as it needs to.
- UncleOxidant 3y ago
  > FIRE is a myth, only a small percentage of people will ever have the ability and means to do it And many of the early proponents of FIRE have been going back to work. Recently, Financial Samurai posted that he was going to return to work for various reasons (one being he's going to have to save up to pay for his kid's education).
  - nathants 3y ago
    fire may be a myth, but rest is occasional remote work, heloc, section 121, and moving every 2 years. usa only. ymmv. housing go brrr.
    - jgauth 3y ago
      Can you describe more what you mean? Are you suggesting one could live by selling their home and purchasing a new one every 2 years, and doing something with credit secured by the home(s)? How does that relate to rest?
      - Izkata 3y ago
        The last part hints they're probably just mocking that viewpoint, it's a reference to https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/money-printer-go-brrr https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/money-printer-go-brrr
majormajor 3y ago
Even for shallow definitions of "rest" vs the deeper dive the article attempts I think that's only so true. Work or financial need are not the only sources of unrest in live. If you have a partner, is that more or less restful? If you have children, is that more or less restful? Is living in a city more or less restful than on a farm? I think the answers to these questions oscillate frequently over the course of one's life in the modern world.
- necovek 3y ago
  I'd even go as far to say that they "oscillate" daily and hourly. One hour, it's restful that I've got a loving wife and kids, and the other, it's hard work ;-) The point of rest and restful moments is to have enough of them, and certainly more than the non-restful ones.
Cthulhu_ 3y ago
For most people, that involves working until they reach retirement age. For most people, working their ass off isn't working; they will never reach financial independence no matter how much they work, or they will never reach a point where they're content. Then they hit burn-out, and wonder how it came to this. Seriously, chill out. It's fine to have side projects or to keep building up your career or whatever, but you need the rest as well. Think of it this way, you can't perform well if you don't take care of yourself; this means rest, sleep, eat, and enjoy.

basicallybones 3y ago

Optimizing for anxiety minimization and joy/meaning maximization is a pretty good alternative. I think it is a good way to be an admirable, productive person without burning yourself out to please others.

atleastoptimal 3y ago
I maximize for my enemies' pain
- glitchc 3y ago
  Does it maximize your pain too?
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    Well, you can't optimize for 2 goals...
    - omginternets 3y ago
      Yes you can. It’s called multivariate optimization. I suspect you are confusing this with the idea that you can always optimize one variable further than two.
  - hangsi 3y ago
    "Irrelevant!"
  - antognini 3y ago
    It's easy to do if you are your own worst enemy.
- commandlinefan 3y ago
  I assume you're joking... but it's hard to miss how much of corporate life becomes a game of chicken where managers try to find how hard they can push workers before the workers push back - or, to what extent workers will sacrifice rest and their own well-being for continued employment. Of course, the manager has a manager who's pushing them, too.

commandlinefan 3y ago

I got about halfway through, wondering, "how is he going to tie all of this into HTTP-based API calls?" before I realized he was talking about actual rest.

dboreham 3y ago
Same thought. Although also tutting at the lack of capitalization.
re-thc 3y ago
Couldn’t find any json either
- tpoacher 3y ago
  Not enough jquery

kazinator 3y ago

[flagged]

deleted 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

solatic 3y ago

Author's lens is of work vs. rest, and sure enough, robots will always beat humans at work. Except that not all work is robotic. Sure, profits can be found in the rote optimization of process until the final result is made available through mass production for an affordable price; such optimization for process trends towards robotic optimization. But profit can also be found in the boutique, the artisan; a focus on quality and all other factors be damned, where the labor of love is self-inspiring and self-rejuvenating. Arguably, one's aim early in life should be to find for oneself labor that is so characterized - boutique, internally motivated, and capable of ekeing out a profit.

chromoblob 3y ago
I'm sure that quality will be modeled mathematically and optimized for as well
badpun 3y ago
> Arguably, one's aim early in life should be to find for oneself labor that is so characterized - boutique, internally motivated, and capable of ekeing out a profit. This is a very modern and American take on work. Through history, work was despised and avoided whenever possible. Under that framework, the goal of the early life would be to find out a line of work which allows you to work as little as possible. Which is basically the goal of the FIRE movement.
- ppsreejith 3y ago
  Excluding the profit motive, different cultures had different ideals about work and not all despised/avoided work. One interpretation from the Gita is to find purposeful labor that is motivated by our inner divinity. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1394795-you-have-the-right-to-work-but-for-the-work-s https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1394795-you-have-the-right-... > You have the right to work, but for the work's sake only. You have no right to the fruits of work. Desire for the fruits of work must never be your motive in working. Never give way to laziness, either. > Perform every action with you heart fixed on the Supreme Lord. Renounce attachment to the fruits. Be even-tempered in success and failure: for it is this evenness of temper which is meant by yoga. > Work done with anxiety about results is far inferior to work done without such anxiety, in the calm of self-surrender. Seek refuge in the knowledge of Brahma. They who work selfishly for results are miserable.

leobg 3y ago

The article is insightful. But how serious can you take the author when it’s framed by calls to “subscribe” and “share”? What is that if not the “automatic drains” the author talks about. He writes that there’s “a tendency to carry into our efforts to find rest the very same spirit which animates the system that left us tired and burnt out”. Isn’t that precisely what he is doing with this newsletter?

iku 3y ago

Apalled to see to many people in the comments not getting the point of the article. You can't optimize because optimizing (for whatever) is an effort, not rest; it undermines the point of rest. It points to the deeply engrained way we (humans, collectively) think, as if rest (or inner peace, or relaxation) was a project, a goal to achieve, or at least a to do item.

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