7 ms·

I moved from the US to Sweden after struggling with burnout

51 points by sorenjan 3y ago

tpmx 3y ago
Some parts sounded a bit off until I got to the bit that (combined with a bit of local knowledge about salary levels) made it clear that she is working for a company that offers a "HR person as a service" to other companies, not tech or otherwise especially qualified consulting, as I had somehow assumed. A qualified HR consultant would make a lot more. I'm happy she likes it here.
ricardobayes 3y ago
I'm not sure if I would put Scandinavia and happiness in the same sentence. Brutal winters, SAD and stuff. Maybe Swedes are happy because they can spend (and afford) 6 weeks of holiday in the south of Spain to cancel out that crap weather. (edited out a part that was factually incorrect)
- _puk 3y ago
  Whilst we are generalising, why wouldn't we put it in the same sentence? "What Americans Can Learn From Scandinavians, the Happiest People in the World"[0] 0: https://www.thrillist.com/travel/nation/why-scandinavians-are-happiest-people-in-the-world https://www.thrillist.com/travel/nation/why-scandinavians-ar...
  - boomchinolo78 3y ago
    I've researched this issue, the Scandys doth protest too much.
- maccard 3y ago
  I choose to live in Scotland over many other places in the world. Unbearably hot summer days where you have to avoid being outdoors for the mid afternoon are not my idea of a good time. Factors like holiday entitlements, and cultural norms are far more important than "is it hot outside".
- izacus 3y ago
  "6 months of total darkness" huh? That's news to all of us that have been there.
- timkam 3y ago
  Sweden is for sure not the socialist paradise that some think it is. But the Winter in the (relative) South of Sweden are relatively mild and there are always some hours of sun. I live in the North of Sweden (geographically somewhat north of the center) and while the winters are long, there are always some hours of sunlight, often direct sunlight without clouds, reflected by the snow. It's beautiful. The real problem is that the current inflation, recession and increased unemployment, in combination with the previous habit of infinite-time mortgages and policies that favor the non-working elites, are ruining the social contract...
  - ricardobayes 3y ago
    I stand corrected. I experienced the midnight sun there, and assumed it also went dark for an extended period of time as well.
    - rejectfinite 3y ago
      Yes but not in Malmö where she lives. Look at a map.
    - mdhen 3y ago
      The Arctic circle is where you get 24 hour night and days. And that is very far north in Sweden.
- sorenjan 3y ago
  She lives in Malmö in southern Sweden. Some years they don't even get any meteorological winter at all (5 consecutive days with an average temperature below 0°C). Scandinavia does not have brutal winters thanks to the gulf stream, and the polar night (which is not total darkness) is a few weeks in the sparsely populated area north of the arctic circle.
  - fransje26 3y ago
    Ugh.. Then you have winter without the best part of winter: snow.
- bogdanstanciu 3y ago
  There's also not that firm belief that cold and dark is bad. You go out on your skidoo, you go cross country skiing, etc etc, and then you return to your cozy home. or go to a sauna. You drink your fish elixir. You try to prioritize time around the little sunlight there is. Brutal winters are not quite as brutal when you just call em "winter". Plus dry colds tend to not feel as cold. Ottawa at -10 feels worse than Yellowknife at -25 (imo).
  - quacked 3y ago
    I live in Wisconsin, USA and I always laugh when people talk about how hard the winters are here. 3-4 well-planned layers on your torso and legs, a good pair of wool socks and boots, and a cross-country skiing hobby and you end up anxious that winter won't last long enough. It's the people who stay indoors and don't dress properly for the cold who have a hard time. Regarding Scandinavia, I suspect the lack of sunlight does add an interesting dimension of toughness to winter that we don't have to deal with here, though.
    - rascul 3y ago
      > It's the people who stay indoors and don't dress properly for the cold who have a hard time. It's also the people who just don't like the cold. I dress properly, I don't stay indoors, and I hate the cold. It makes just about everything worse for me.
- dubcanada 3y ago
  There is crap weather in US too, Minnesota, North Dakota, etc get extremely bad weather, -40C all winter and summer lasts a few months. Sweden at least has the ocean to mellow out the temperate extremes.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Yeah and times nearing Summer like this is annoying. It is coming to evening or extremely early morning and it is still way too light outside. Just horrible here in Northern Europe...
- dumpster_fire 3y ago
  Really? I just hopped on public transport, and could visit any friend within 20 minutes. Or just suit up and go on a hike. Or maybe take a walk in the exceedingly beautiful city. I never understood this complaint from the naysayers. Having lived in both places for several years (first couple of years are never a good gauge due to taxes, relocation, visa, acclimatization, bias), I very much prefer the quality of life in Europe. At least California pays well enough to offset the forest smog I guess. And yes convenient access to other European countries is also a big plus.
  - cmh89 3y ago
    >I never understood this complaint from the naysayers. In the United States, a lot of people act like being outside in 40 degree weather is deadly. I also think Americans are less social, especially as they get older so winters tend to be a lot of sitting inside and watching TV. It varies for sure. I live in a place with overcast and wet winters and I get SAD really bad if I'm not leaving the house, but do fine when I can get out into nature or spend time with friends.
- rejectfinite 3y ago
  1. Dont North of USA also get really cold and dark? My winters in south of Sweden are like -10C max for a day... Not very brutal. 2. Take some Vitamin D and its fine... 3. Dark is cozy too
  - ben_w 3y ago
    Sweden is approved the same latitude band as Alaska. Sweden may be warmer thanks to the gulf stream, but its winters are as dark as the darkest you can get in the US.
    - rejectfinite 3y ago
      I live here lol I know what its like
      - ben_w 3y ago
        Which of Alaska and Sweden is your "here"? :)
samuell 3y ago
A bit surprising to read the comment about shootings in the US, as shooting is increasing a lot in Sweden lately. But I guess things are relative.
- suddenclarity 3y ago
  I believe we also have a record in bombings. With that said, the grass is always greener in these articles. You can find both ends of the spectrum in most countries depending on where you live.
- maccard 3y ago
  2022 saw 60 people killed by shootings in sweden, and from my quick googling the rise appears to be gang related. Sweden has 10m people. Meanwhile, Chicago with 2m people had 12 people killed _last weekend_.
  - goostavos 3y ago
    I'm gunna go ahead and wager that those Chicago shootings are also gang related.
    - stcroixx 3y ago
      Increasingly less so. Memorial day weekend had 2 separate fatal shootings in the lake view neighborhood, which is all young rich kids. Perps might have been gang members but victims definitely not.
      - rhaway84773 3y ago
        Clowns like Ja Morant do play a role in this. There’s no other reason for the rich kids to be swinging guns.
        tptacek 3y ago
        Rich kids aren't swinging guns in Lakeview.
sakopov 3y ago
> My salary here as an American can feel very low, but I feel wealthy in Sweden. You don't need to make a lot of money to live a good life. Back in the US, I was making $60,000 a year before taxes and that was almost eight years ago. Here, my annual salary is around $45,000 a year before taxes. I've lived in LA for about 3 years now and I find it fascinating how lackluster the salaries are in this area (for both technical and non-technical roles). $60K isn't even paycheck to paycheck for Burbank. That's just simply not enough to afford basic housing. No wonder people get burned out.
- nine_zeros 3y ago
  In America, the rat race never ends. It doesn't even pause. The race continues until you die. The system is designed to extract as much value out of employees as possible and as much money out of consumers as possible. Living a life where one can't even take a pause is incredibly stressful. There is a reason why the FIRE movement is so popular in America. People are sick of living here.
  - flashback2199 3y ago
    I used to think this, but now I think that, especially given what many immigrants and Americans born into poverty are able to do here, the problem might actually be me, most likely requiring a process of both learning and un-learning. There is just too much wealth in this country for "rat race" to be a worthwhile way for me to be doing life in the long term. I've kind of been thinking of it lately as an optimization problem where the rat race is a local maximum and that there are higher local maxima adjacent to rat race that I could get to that I just don't know about yet.
    - nine_zeros 3y ago
      > I used to think this, but now I think that, especially given what many immigrants and Americans born into poverty are able to do here, the problem might actually be me, most likely requiring a process of both learning and un-learning. This is a good point but is orthogonal to the "rat race". The reason immigrants are succeeding is because they are motivated. America historically self-selected for the motivated by asking people to make perilous journeys and give everything up to start over in a new land. Very few people want to do this. But, to the "rat race", these same immigrants also hate the American rat race. They ALL want to make the money, invest and retire. Modern day immigrants even go to the extent of making the money and leaving America entirely. They don't want to "live" in this rat race. They want to "work" and get out of here. > I've kind of been thinking of it lately as an optimization problem where the rat race is a local maximum and that there are higher local maxima adjacent to rat race that I could get to that I just don't know about yet. Rat race is a local maximum, where you get enough money to not "have to" work ever. The next step is either your own business or FIRE entirely. This is the modern American way. As an example, if you visit Thailand, you'll see a lot of Americans who own bars, restaurants etc. They made enough money in America to be able to quit the rat race and now are living for cheap while building their assets - except they are doing it in growing Asian countries instead of the midwest.
hospitalJail 3y ago
Making 45k/yr with a 33% income tax is pretty stressful IMO. So they don't have disposable income, arent saving for retirement, and can't go to eat at restaurants? I suppose in the US, when making 60k/yr its pretty similar since 10-30k get eaten up my medical expenses.
- knubie 3y ago
  > since 10-30k get eaten up my medical expenses. For the average 30-something? Not even close…
- trinix912 3y ago
  It's not comparable to the US system, the welfare system there (and in most other EU countries) covers a lot of that. Hence the high taxes.
  - WeylandYutani 3y ago
    Not Sweden but in the Netherlands the government will cover up to 2/3rd of your rent. Medical insurance idem dito. Mind you America is THE place to be if you're a rich libertarian asshole but -spoiler alert- most people aren't.
- BlargMcLarg 3y ago
  Retirement is baked into the tax system for most countries in Europe. Expenses don't go over 1.5k net for most single people, including rent, utilities and more. That still leaves 1k to use however you want. You want more spending money, find someone to share the costs with. It's the US that's the outlier in the world, and it does so at the cost of others.
- techsupporter 3y ago
  > So they don't have disposable income, arent saving for retirement, and can't go to eat at restaurants? There's a lot you can do when other expenses aren't eating up your take-home pay. For instance, they mention not having to own a vehicle or drive. Car ownership is a substantial expense in the US[0]. Were it not for Seattle's mostly-passable transit system, my wife and I would be a lot deeper in bills (neither of us drives). Plus, if everyone around you is earning approximately the same thing, wealth-display-competition just isn't a thing. I know people will scoff at it--"that's what you get for trying to keep up with the Joneses"--but humans are social creatures. We want to be like people who are around us and we want to be around people who are like us. Not having that added stress is freeing. This also makes more room for social and leisure activities that don't involve going out to eat and spending a bunch of money as a result. Thus, society is more geared to providing those activities, instead of a plethora of semi-public spaces that cost money to be in. 0 - Just under $1,000/month, on average: https://www.bts.gov/content/mile-costs-owning-and-operating-automobile https://www.bts.gov/content/mile-costs-owning-and-operating-...
criddell 3y ago
How difficult is it for an American to move to Sweden to live long term? The author had an employer sponsored visa. Are there other paths?
- devoutsalsa 3y ago
  I don’t know about Sweden, but I think immigration to Europe is easier than immigration to the USA. I recently interviewed with a company in the Netherlands, and immigration was a non-issue. Get job, get residence visa (assuming you aren’t a criminal with a record that shows up in a background check). Taxes are high in Western Europe, and salary lower than in the USA. That being said, some companies pay wages that are semi-competitive with American wages, and some countries offer a tax advantage for skilled immigrants (in the Netherlands, for qualified immigrants they offer package called the 30% rule, where you don’t pay taxes on 30% of your income & you’re exempt from the wealth tax on assets outside of the Netherlands*) *don’t quote me on that, do your own research* Info on the 30% rule in the Netherlands: https://www.expatica.com/nl/finance/taxes/the-dutch-30-ruling-explained-101641 https://www.expatica.com/nl/finance/taxes/the-dutch-30-rulin...
  - bmoxb 3y ago
    From my limited knowledge, I think Switzerland is probably the only country that might be a bit more difficult coming from outside of the EU.
  - tpmx 3y ago
    Sweden: For tech workers with reasonable salaries - it's very similar. There's not that much paperwork for the employer (no lawyers need to be involved on either side, even in small companies the HR people or the CEO/Founder are normally able to handle it on their own without that much pain).
  - freitzkriesler2 3y ago
    It depends on what you do professionally. Are you a software developer? If so, you're golden to pretty much move anywhere you want. Anything else and you're SOL
INTPenis 3y ago
What most people outside of Sweden don't understand is that a young person can work as a waitress, save up money and go backpacking in Thailand. It's so important to broaden your horizons in your youth, and the Swedish system allows just that.
- dubcanada 3y ago
  Can you not do that if you live in any other country?
  - ben_w 3y ago
    How much money can the average waiter/waitress save up in most countries? (I've never worked as one, all I can say is the role has a reputation as being low-paid).
    - dubcanada 3y ago
      I've never worked as a waiter/waitress in any country. But any developed nation with a fairly decent salary index would support you making enough to backpack in a poor nation like Thailand. The whole idea of backpacking is spending basically nothing. The internet says $20-30 a day, assuming you go for 30 days, and assuming higher range, that's $900.
      - ben_w 3y ago
        I get the impression the role is mostly wages (i.e. hours worked) rather than salary. The closest I've had specific details of is an ex who did some behind-the-counter stuff in a fast-food place in Davis CA (so not enough to extrapolate from), and that wasn't enough to cover just rent by itself.
  - onemoresoop 3y ago
    Not really, you wouldn't even be able to cover most of your living expenses on that kind of money.
satysin 3y ago
Not to hate on Sweden at all but these articles always read like they've been written by the country in questions PR arm of government. I have a couple of friends that moved from the US to Sweden and absolutely hated it and ended up moving back to the US after ~3 years. My wife worked with a woman that moved to [redacted] from the US and while she was okay with it her husband hated [redacted]. Whereas I, a born and raised Brit, moved from the UK to [redacted] in 2018 and absolutely love it here. On the flip side I tried living in the US for two years back in my twenties and it was awful. I hated almost every minute of my time there. My sister also has been working in the US for the past 3 years on a work placement and cannot wait to leave in August. That isn't to say the US is an awful place. It is easily one of my favourite places to go on holiday but I am not compatible with it as a home. Just as [redacted] was not compatible with the husband of my wife's colleague. And Sweden was not compatible with my friends. In reality these kind of articles are basically worthless as everyone is different. IMHO you can't really learn anything of value from such pieces.
- was_a_dev 3y ago
  I think a lot of people don't realise the large cultural differences between the US and Europe. Most Brits (myself included) fall into this due to the lack of language barrier. In my opinion, British culture aligns better to Europe than the US (for obvious geographical reasons)
  - satysin 3y ago
    I very much agree with this. While [redacted] and the UK don't share a language like the US and UK do I have found the [redacted] and Brits are much more alike than most people realise. Far more so than I found as a Brit and Americans. Obviously not saying one is better than the other. They're just different and I felt very much the "alien" when in America whereas I felt "at home" in [redacted] in just a few months. I guess there is a lot of similarities in way of life in the UK and in [redacted]. Healthcare is very similar. Education isn't too different. General support for the social care system is the same. Etc. So while the language is different the overall cultural differences between [redacted] and the UK are tiny having seen it first hand. Funny story but when I've meet people back in the UK and they learn I moved to [redacted] they always ask how hard I found it and are shocked when I say the [redacted] and the Brits are really similar so it wasn't really hard at all. Some are almost offended by it hah.
rejectfinite 3y ago
https://archive.today/cIJOw https://archive.today/cIJOw
zerr 3y ago
I hope someday employment will be completely decoupled from the time, so the compensation will be based on impact rather than hours. Some companies claim that only impact matters, although even if you achieve "a week worth" of impact, you are still required to churn the holy 40+ hours.
legitster 3y ago
But if you want to live in cheaper places with jobs where you work less, those are available in the US. And they don't require a master's degree and 2 years on a job market! Especially if you are willing to get paid less for that work life balance. > My motivation is just so high because I gave up being near my family, higher salaries, the friendliness of Americans, and the amazing nature in the US to move here. I applaud anyone taking on these big life adventures for fun, and I think Sweden is awesome, but this article is kind of "damning with faint praise". Outside of some pretty fraught financial justification, she is describing a lifestyle that is pretty achievable in the US, and makes a big deal about the sacrifices she is making to achieve it.
zwieback 3y ago
The interesting bit here is that the partner got a job in tech "right away" and she had to look for a long time. Without that partner - how much fun would it have been?
- low_tech_love 3y ago
  Exactly. My wife has two BScs and one MSc and has been unemployed for 7 years.
  - tpmx 3y ago
    What field? (Swedish language skills are critical for pretty much all fields except tech).
    - low_tech_love 3y ago
      Education.
sys_64738 3y ago
Did I miss the part where it says how she actually could legally immigrate to Sweden?
- distracted_boy 3y ago
  > His company sponsored both of our residencies and work visas, so we had the ability to live and work in Sweden full time. Once we moved here, we went to the immigration and tax agencies and filled out all the paperwork. It took around three months to get everything settled.
freitzkriesler2 3y ago
I hate these articles. First, there are plenty of employers in the United States that offer 6 weeks vacation. My last employer had unlimited vacation and you can bet I used at least 6 weeks spread over the course of a year. Second, you can't just "move" to Europe and get a job without a work visa unless you want to work a crappy cash under the table job. This chicks "partner" was the one who got sponsored because he has a real job and she was able to mooch off of his visa as a partner. The fact is, she wouldn't have been able to move to Sweden without him. The reality is, without her partner who does the real work she would never be able to relocate abroad. But yet she's happy. Honestly, she just sounds like someone who is happier living abroad. I get that but the level of hamstering she does in the article is just cringeworthy and partly the reason I loathe and avoid American expats when I'm abroad.

51 points by sorenjan 3y ago

tpmx 3y ago

Some parts sounded a bit off until I got to the bit that (combined with a bit of local knowledge about salary levels) made it clear that she is working for a company that offers a "HR person as a service" to other companies, not tech or otherwise especially qualified consulting, as I had somehow assumed. A qualified HR consultant would make a lot more. I'm happy she likes it here.

ricardobayes 3y ago

I'm not sure if I would put Scandinavia and happiness in the same sentence. Brutal winters, SAD and stuff. Maybe Swedes are happy because they can spend (and afford) 6 weeks of holiday in the south of Spain to cancel out that crap weather. (edited out a part that was factually incorrect)

_puk 3y ago
Whilst we are generalising, why wouldn't we put it in the same sentence? "What Americans Can Learn From Scandinavians, the Happiest People in the World"[0] 0: https://www.thrillist.com/travel/nation/why-scandinavians-are-happiest-people-in-the-world https://www.thrillist.com/travel/nation/why-scandinavians-ar...
- boomchinolo78 3y ago
  I've researched this issue, the Scandys doth protest too much.
maccard 3y ago
I choose to live in Scotland over many other places in the world. Unbearably hot summer days where you have to avoid being outdoors for the mid afternoon are not my idea of a good time. Factors like holiday entitlements, and cultural norms are far more important than "is it hot outside".
izacus 3y ago
"6 months of total darkness" huh? That's news to all of us that have been there.
timkam 3y ago
Sweden is for sure not the socialist paradise that some think it is. But the Winter in the (relative) South of Sweden are relatively mild and there are always some hours of sun. I live in the North of Sweden (geographically somewhat north of the center) and while the winters are long, there are always some hours of sunlight, often direct sunlight without clouds, reflected by the snow. It's beautiful. The real problem is that the current inflation, recession and increased unemployment, in combination with the previous habit of infinite-time mortgages and policies that favor the non-working elites, are ruining the social contract...
- ricardobayes 3y ago
  I stand corrected. I experienced the midnight sun there, and assumed it also went dark for an extended period of time as well.
  - rejectfinite 3y ago
    Yes but not in Malmö where she lives. Look at a map.
  - mdhen 3y ago
    The Arctic circle is where you get 24 hour night and days. And that is very far north in Sweden.
sorenjan 3y ago
She lives in Malmö in southern Sweden. Some years they don't even get any meteorological winter at all (5 consecutive days with an average temperature below 0°C). Scandinavia does not have brutal winters thanks to the gulf stream, and the polar night (which is not total darkness) is a few weeks in the sparsely populated area north of the arctic circle.
- fransje26 3y ago
  Ugh.. Then you have winter without the best part of winter: snow.
bogdanstanciu 3y ago
There's also not that firm belief that cold and dark is bad. You go out on your skidoo, you go cross country skiing, etc etc, and then you return to your cozy home. or go to a sauna. You drink your fish elixir. You try to prioritize time around the little sunlight there is. Brutal winters are not quite as brutal when you just call em "winter". Plus dry colds tend to not feel as cold. Ottawa at -10 feels worse than Yellowknife at -25 (imo).
- quacked 3y ago
  I live in Wisconsin, USA and I always laugh when people talk about how hard the winters are here. 3-4 well-planned layers on your torso and legs, a good pair of wool socks and boots, and a cross-country skiing hobby and you end up anxious that winter won't last long enough. It's the people who stay indoors and don't dress properly for the cold who have a hard time. Regarding Scandinavia, I suspect the lack of sunlight does add an interesting dimension of toughness to winter that we don't have to deal with here, though.
  - rascul 3y ago
    > It's the people who stay indoors and don't dress properly for the cold who have a hard time. It's also the people who just don't like the cold. I dress properly, I don't stay indoors, and I hate the cold. It makes just about everything worse for me.
dubcanada 3y ago
There is crap weather in US too, Minnesota, North Dakota, etc get extremely bad weather, -40C all winter and summer lasts a few months. Sweden at least has the ocean to mellow out the temperate extremes.
Ekaros 3y ago
Yeah and times nearing Summer like this is annoying. It is coming to evening or extremely early morning and it is still way too light outside. Just horrible here in Northern Europe...
dumpster_fire 3y ago
Really? I just hopped on public transport, and could visit any friend within 20 minutes. Or just suit up and go on a hike. Or maybe take a walk in the exceedingly beautiful city. I never understood this complaint from the naysayers. Having lived in both places for several years (first couple of years are never a good gauge due to taxes, relocation, visa, acclimatization, bias), I very much prefer the quality of life in Europe. At least California pays well enough to offset the forest smog I guess. And yes convenient access to other European countries is also a big plus.
- cmh89 3y ago
  >I never understood this complaint from the naysayers. In the United States, a lot of people act like being outside in 40 degree weather is deadly. I also think Americans are less social, especially as they get older so winters tend to be a lot of sitting inside and watching TV. It varies for sure. I live in a place with overcast and wet winters and I get SAD really bad if I'm not leaving the house, but do fine when I can get out into nature or spend time with friends.
rejectfinite 3y ago
1. Dont North of USA also get really cold and dark? My winters in south of Sweden are like -10C max for a day... Not very brutal. 2. Take some Vitamin D and its fine... 3. Dark is cozy too
- ben_w 3y ago
  Sweden is approved the same latitude band as Alaska. Sweden may be warmer thanks to the gulf stream, but its winters are as dark as the darkest you can get in the US.
  - rejectfinite 3y ago
    I live here lol I know what its like
    - ben_w 3y ago
      Which of Alaska and Sweden is your "here"? :)

samuell 3y ago

A bit surprising to read the comment about shootings in the US, as shooting is increasing a lot in Sweden lately. But I guess things are relative.

suddenclarity 3y ago
I believe we also have a record in bombings. With that said, the grass is always greener in these articles. You can find both ends of the spectrum in most countries depending on where you live.
maccard 3y ago
2022 saw 60 people killed by shootings in sweden, and from my quick googling the rise appears to be gang related. Sweden has 10m people. Meanwhile, Chicago with 2m people had 12 people killed _last weekend_.
- goostavos 3y ago
  I'm gunna go ahead and wager that those Chicago shootings are also gang related.
  - stcroixx 3y ago
    Increasingly less so. Memorial day weekend had 2 separate fatal shootings in the lake view neighborhood, which is all young rich kids. Perps might have been gang members but victims definitely not.
    - rhaway84773 3y ago
      Clowns like Ja Morant do play a role in this. There’s no other reason for the rich kids to be swinging guns.
      - tptacek 3y ago
        Rich kids aren't swinging guns in Lakeview.

sakopov 3y ago

> My salary here as an American can feel very low, but I feel wealthy in Sweden. You don't need to make a lot of money to live a good life. Back in the US, I was making $60,000 a year before taxes and that was almost eight years ago. Here, my annual salary is around $45,000 a year before taxes. I've lived in LA for about 3 years now and I find it fascinating how lackluster the salaries are in this area (for both technical and non-technical roles). $60K isn't even paycheck to paycheck for Burbank. That's just simply not enough to afford basic housing. No wonder people get burned out.

nine_zeros 3y ago
In America, the rat race never ends. It doesn't even pause. The race continues until you die. The system is designed to extract as much value out of employees as possible and as much money out of consumers as possible. Living a life where one can't even take a pause is incredibly stressful. There is a reason why the FIRE movement is so popular in America. People are sick of living here.
- flashback2199 3y ago
  I used to think this, but now I think that, especially given what many immigrants and Americans born into poverty are able to do here, the problem might actually be me, most likely requiring a process of both learning and un-learning. There is just too much wealth in this country for "rat race" to be a worthwhile way for me to be doing life in the long term. I've kind of been thinking of it lately as an optimization problem where the rat race is a local maximum and that there are higher local maxima adjacent to rat race that I could get to that I just don't know about yet.
  - nine_zeros 3y ago
    > I used to think this, but now I think that, especially given what many immigrants and Americans born into poverty are able to do here, the problem might actually be me, most likely requiring a process of both learning and un-learning. This is a good point but is orthogonal to the "rat race". The reason immigrants are succeeding is because they are motivated. America historically self-selected for the motivated by asking people to make perilous journeys and give everything up to start over in a new land. Very few people want to do this. But, to the "rat race", these same immigrants also hate the American rat race. They ALL want to make the money, invest and retire. Modern day immigrants even go to the extent of making the money and leaving America entirely. They don't want to "live" in this rat race. They want to "work" and get out of here. > I've kind of been thinking of it lately as an optimization problem where the rat race is a local maximum and that there are higher local maxima adjacent to rat race that I could get to that I just don't know about yet. Rat race is a local maximum, where you get enough money to not "have to" work ever. The next step is either your own business or FIRE entirely. This is the modern American way. As an example, if you visit Thailand, you'll see a lot of Americans who own bars, restaurants etc. They made enough money in America to be able to quit the rat race and now are living for cheap while building their assets - except they are doing it in growing Asian countries instead of the midwest.

hospitalJail 3y ago

Making 45k/yr with a 33% income tax is pretty stressful IMO. So they don't have disposable income, arent saving for retirement, and can't go to eat at restaurants? I suppose in the US, when making 60k/yr its pretty similar since 10-30k get eaten up my medical expenses.

knubie 3y ago
> since 10-30k get eaten up my medical expenses. For the average 30-something? Not even close…
trinix912 3y ago
It's not comparable to the US system, the welfare system there (and in most other EU countries) covers a lot of that. Hence the high taxes.
- WeylandYutani 3y ago
  Not Sweden but in the Netherlands the government will cover up to 2/3rd of your rent. Medical insurance idem dito. Mind you America is THE place to be if you're a rich libertarian asshole but -spoiler alert- most people aren't.
BlargMcLarg 3y ago
Retirement is baked into the tax system for most countries in Europe. Expenses don't go over 1.5k net for most single people, including rent, utilities and more. That still leaves 1k to use however you want. You want more spending money, find someone to share the costs with. It's the US that's the outlier in the world, and it does so at the cost of others.
techsupporter 3y ago
> So they don't have disposable income, arent saving for retirement, and can't go to eat at restaurants? There's a lot you can do when other expenses aren't eating up your take-home pay. For instance, they mention not having to own a vehicle or drive. Car ownership is a substantial expense in the US[0]. Were it not for Seattle's mostly-passable transit system, my wife and I would be a lot deeper in bills (neither of us drives). Plus, if everyone around you is earning approximately the same thing, wealth-display-competition just isn't a thing. I know people will scoff at it--"that's what you get for trying to keep up with the Joneses"--but humans are social creatures. We want to be like people who are around us and we want to be around people who are like us. Not having that added stress is freeing. This also makes more room for social and leisure activities that don't involve going out to eat and spending a bunch of money as a result. Thus, society is more geared to providing those activities, instead of a plethora of semi-public spaces that cost money to be in. 0 - Just under $1,000/month, on average: https://www.bts.gov/content/mile-costs-owning-and-operating-automobile https://www.bts.gov/content/mile-costs-owning-and-operating-...

criddell 3y ago

How difficult is it for an American to move to Sweden to live long term? The author had an employer sponsored visa. Are there other paths?

devoutsalsa 3y ago
I don’t know about Sweden, but I think immigration to Europe is easier than immigration to the USA. I recently interviewed with a company in the Netherlands, and immigration was a non-issue. Get job, get residence visa (assuming you aren’t a criminal with a record that shows up in a background check). Taxes are high in Western Europe, and salary lower than in the USA. That being said, some companies pay wages that are semi-competitive with American wages, and some countries offer a tax advantage for skilled immigrants (in the Netherlands, for qualified immigrants they offer package called the 30% rule, where you don’t pay taxes on 30% of your income & you’re exempt from the wealth tax on assets outside of the Netherlands*) *don’t quote me on that, do your own research* Info on the 30% rule in the Netherlands: https://www.expatica.com/nl/finance/taxes/the-dutch-30-ruling-explained-101641 https://www.expatica.com/nl/finance/taxes/the-dutch-30-rulin...
- bmoxb 3y ago
  From my limited knowledge, I think Switzerland is probably the only country that might be a bit more difficult coming from outside of the EU.
- tpmx 3y ago
  Sweden: For tech workers with reasonable salaries - it's very similar. There's not that much paperwork for the employer (no lawyers need to be involved on either side, even in small companies the HR people or the CEO/Founder are normally able to handle it on their own without that much pain).
- freitzkriesler2 3y ago
  It depends on what you do professionally. Are you a software developer? If so, you're golden to pretty much move anywhere you want. Anything else and you're SOL

INTPenis 3y ago

What most people outside of Sweden don't understand is that a young person can work as a waitress, save up money and go backpacking in Thailand. It's so important to broaden your horizons in your youth, and the Swedish system allows just that.

dubcanada 3y ago
Can you not do that if you live in any other country?
- ben_w 3y ago
  How much money can the average waiter/waitress save up in most countries? (I've never worked as one, all I can say is the role has a reputation as being low-paid).
  - dubcanada 3y ago
    I've never worked as a waiter/waitress in any country. But any developed nation with a fairly decent salary index would support you making enough to backpack in a poor nation like Thailand. The whole idea of backpacking is spending basically nothing. The internet says $20-30 a day, assuming you go for 30 days, and assuming higher range, that's $900.
    - ben_w 3y ago
      I get the impression the role is mostly wages (i.e. hours worked) rather than salary. The closest I've had specific details of is an ex who did some behind-the-counter stuff in a fast-food place in Davis CA (so not enough to extrapolate from), and that wasn't enough to cover just rent by itself.
- onemoresoop 3y ago
  Not really, you wouldn't even be able to cover most of your living expenses on that kind of money.

satysin 3y ago

Not to hate on Sweden at all but these articles always read like they've been written by the country in questions PR arm of government. I have a couple of friends that moved from the US to Sweden and absolutely hated it and ended up moving back to the US after ~3 years. My wife worked with a woman that moved to [redacted] from the US and while she was okay with it her husband hated [redacted]. Whereas I, a born and raised Brit, moved from the UK to [redacted] in 2018 and absolutely love it here. On the flip side I tried living in the US for two years back in my twenties and it was awful. I hated almost every minute of my time there. My sister also has been working in the US for the past 3 years on a work placement and cannot wait to leave in August. That isn't to say the US is an awful place. It is easily one of my favourite places to go on holiday but I am not compatible with it as a home. Just as [redacted] was not compatible with the husband of my wife's colleague. And Sweden was not compatible with my friends. In reality these kind of articles are basically worthless as everyone is different. IMHO you can't really learn anything of value from such pieces.

was_a_dev 3y ago
I think a lot of people don't realise the large cultural differences between the US and Europe. Most Brits (myself included) fall into this due to the lack of language barrier. In my opinion, British culture aligns better to Europe than the US (for obvious geographical reasons)
- satysin 3y ago
  I very much agree with this. While [redacted] and the UK don't share a language like the US and UK do I have found the [redacted] and Brits are much more alike than most people realise. Far more so than I found as a Brit and Americans. Obviously not saying one is better than the other. They're just different and I felt very much the "alien" when in America whereas I felt "at home" in [redacted] in just a few months. I guess there is a lot of similarities in way of life in the UK and in [redacted]. Healthcare is very similar. Education isn't too different. General support for the social care system is the same. Etc. So while the language is different the overall cultural differences between [redacted] and the UK are tiny having seen it first hand. Funny story but when I've meet people back in the UK and they learn I moved to [redacted] they always ask how hard I found it and are shocked when I say the [redacted] and the Brits are really similar so it wasn't really hard at all. Some are almost offended by it hah.

rejectfinite 3y ago

https://archive.today/cIJOw https://archive.today/cIJOw

zerr 3y ago

I hope someday employment will be completely decoupled from the time, so the compensation will be based on impact rather than hours. Some companies claim that only impact matters, although even if you achieve "a week worth" of impact, you are still required to churn the holy 40+ hours.

legitster 3y ago

But if you want to live in cheaper places with jobs where you work less, those are available in the US. And they don't require a master's degree and 2 years on a job market! Especially if you are willing to get paid less for that work life balance. > My motivation is just so high because I gave up being near my family, higher salaries, the friendliness of Americans, and the amazing nature in the US to move here. I applaud anyone taking on these big life adventures for fun, and I think Sweden is awesome, but this article is kind of "damning with faint praise". Outside of some pretty fraught financial justification, she is describing a lifestyle that is pretty achievable in the US, and makes a big deal about the sacrifices she is making to achieve it.

zwieback 3y ago

The interesting bit here is that the partner got a job in tech "right away" and she had to look for a long time. Without that partner - how much fun would it have been?

low_tech_love 3y ago
Exactly. My wife has two BScs and one MSc and has been unemployed for 7 years.
- tpmx 3y ago
  What field? (Swedish language skills are critical for pretty much all fields except tech).
  - low_tech_love 3y ago
    Education.

sys_64738 3y ago

Did I miss the part where it says how she actually could legally immigrate to Sweden?

distracted_boy 3y ago
> His company sponsored both of our residencies and work visas, so we had the ability to live and work in Sweden full time. Once we moved here, we went to the immigration and tax agencies and filled out all the paperwork. It took around three months to get everything settled.

freitzkriesler2 3y ago

I hate these articles. First, there are plenty of employers in the United States that offer 6 weeks vacation. My last employer had unlimited vacation and you can bet I used at least 6 weeks spread over the course of a year. Second, you can't just "move" to Europe and get a job without a work visa unless you want to work a crappy cash under the table job. This chicks "partner" was the one who got sponsored because he has a real job and she was able to mooch off of his visa as a partner. The fact is, she wouldn't have been able to move to Sweden without him. The reality is, without her partner who does the real work she would never be able to relocate abroad. But yet she's happy. Honestly, she just sounds like someone who is happier living abroad. I get that but the level of hamstering she does in the article is just cringeworthy and partly the reason I loathe and avoid American expats when I'm abroad.