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> The holocaust was very much a political event, and to treat it otherwise is to excuse the broad public support that political movement had, and the widespread

> The holocaust was very much a political event, and to treat it otherwise is to excuse the broad public support that political movement had, and the widespread public participation involved. Was it a political event tho? It wasn't something the Nazis were openly announcing they were doing. Sending them to camps was one thing, pretty much every country ended up creating camps to keep people during that time. If they were humanly treated in the camps there wouldn't be so much of an issue. It's that they went to extents that the German masses weren't aware of is what makes the holocaust a wtf. Lots of people use it for political purposes, but was it actually a political event when it was happening or did we just politicise it? The holocaust to me was something they did in secret to their own population. Otherwise we need to group in all interment camps at the time.

bushbaba 3y ago
The nazi desire to exterminate all Jews was known. Jews were killed in the streets of towns. Some even involved mass killings. Towns bragged about being Jew free. Ignorance does not fly. Yes there was some uncertainty of what happened at the camps. But it was well known even at the time that nazi’s camps meant death.
- john008 3y ago
  [dead]
- that_guy_iain 3y ago
  Actually, there was only ever a mention of a final solution. No real understanding of what that meant. This resulted in allied forces, who had spies throughout the Third Reich, being completely shocked by the camps when they found them. The fact, Allied Forces who were better informed than the average German Ciziten had no idea what was happening is a major sign that they didn't know. Furthermore, if you read any of the books written by Germans who lived through that time they'll often say they didn't know what was happening and in one book about a kid who went through the ranks of the Hitler youth, I believe he thought they were fine in the camps and thought people just moved away. Now, in other countries such as the Netherlands the story was different but victims often know the full truth instead of getting told a story. Rewriting history isn't that cool. Furthermore, the majority of victims of the holocaust weren't Jewish, they were civilians. [1] [1] https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documentin...
  - jcranmer 3y ago
    > Furthermore, if you read any of the books written by Germans who lived through that time they'll often say they didn't know what was happening and in one book about a kid who went through the ranks of the Hitler youth, I believe he thought they were fine in the camps and thought people just moved away. From what I've read, the Holocaust was a pretty open secret in Germany. Wikipedia [1] cites studies suggesting that 30-50% of German adults during WWII were aware of the Holocaust, and I'm inclined to believe the higher estimates (especially if you include people who could reasonably suspect that extermination was going on but didn't want to think too hard on it lest they realize their own moral culpability). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Holocau...
    - that_guy_iain 3y ago
      What have you been reading? And an open secret pretty much means it wasn't public policy or politics. And higher estimates don't really make sense, why were the allied forces in the dark? Why were the death camps in Poland and not Germany? People who were living nearby, I will never be convinced they didn't know. But expecting someone in Fankfurt am Main to know about the mass executions happening in small towns in Poland during a time where the country was at war and trying to keep things hush hush so the allied forces don't find out. > Johnson suggests (in disagreement with his co-author) that it is more likely that about 50% of the German population were aware of the atrocities being committed against the Jewish people and other enemies identified by the Nazi regime.[46] To me this reads as someone wanting to say a high number to make things sound bad. There are always people who are going to do that. And I think this thread is exactly that. Frame it in the worst possible way to make a point. But the realities are different. To disagree with experts in the field to say they're wrong and it was something different from what they say is arrogance at the highest order. Especially, when basic logic and reasoning say it wasn't politically motivated. It was motivated by a deranged lunatic who hatred of Jews dates all the way back to when he lived in Vienna and whose hatred of Jews got in the way of everything else which is shown by the fact he increased the killings at the end of the war. The fact, the holocaust as we know it didn't really start until well after political decisions were made. So really, I think it's a fair question to ask was an event that happened well after politics was important a political event or are making it one to fit our narrative? So far the answers have been that it was a clear policy which has been refuted and instead it was an open secret with numbers of people who knew being refuted by the very source that is giving them.
- pbhjpbhj 3y ago
  This doesn't comport with the situation in Hungary in 1944, where Hungarians were transported to extermination camps without, apparently, being aware of what was happening to them, thus leading to most of them dying at the hands of the Nazis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrba%E2%80%93Wetzler_report#Deportations_to_Auschwitz_continue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrba%E2%80%93Wetzler_report#De... Maybe if you make your claims more solid - who knew what, and when - and provided at least one link to evidence. There seems to have been a lot of suppression of knowledge about the camps on the allied side too (looking at how the Vrba-Wetzler report was received), something that I don't understand at all.
arrosenberg 3y ago
> If they were humanly treated in the camps there wouldn't be so much of an issue. Wrong. We've made a pretty big deal over Manzanar and other Japanese-American internment camps, despite their being "more humane".
- that_guy_iain 3y ago
  Comparing Japanese-American internment camps to Auschwitz is a disgraceful thing to do. In no way shape or form were they as big of a problem as Auschwitz. The German POW camps were brutal and left POWs looking like walking skeletons, but we barely mention them. Holding people in camps wasn't the problem, killing them en masse was. many of the victims of the holocaust didn't even make it to camps. The majority of the victims of the holocaust were "soviet" civilians who weren't Jewish. It wasn't the camps, it was the killing people.
  - arrosenberg 3y ago
    > Comparing Japanese-American internment camps to Auschwitz is a disgraceful thing to do. In no way shape or form were they as big of a problem as Auschwitz. That's consistent with what I said. You said "if they were humanly treated in the camps there wouldn't be so much of an issue", to which I provided a counter-example where people were treated more humanely (which you seem to agree with). Nonetheless, I remember learning about Manzanar as a kid multiple times - we do make a big deal out it, and it is properly contextualized as "very bad, but less bad than Auschwitz", at least where I grew up. Sounds like you just want to be up on a soapbox.
discordianfish 3y ago
No, it was widely know. I'm sure you didn't intent this but this 'excuse' is the talking point of neonazis here in Germany to deflect guilt and relativize what happened.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
hackandthink 3y ago
Ian Kershaw: "Hitler, the Germans, and the Final Solution" Haven't read this book but Kershaw's European history which is great. "Kershaw concluded that the majority of Bavarians were either antisemitic or more commonly simply did not care about what was happening to the Jews.[11] Kershaw also concluded that there was a fundamental difference between the antisemitism of the majority of ordinary people, who disliked Jews and were much coloured by traditional Catholic prejudices, and the ideological and far more radical völkische antisemitism of the Nazi Party, who hated Jews" (Wikipedia) https://books.google.de/books/about/Hitler_the_Germans_and_the_Final_Solutio.html?id=uwOXG_Ott9MC&redir_esc=y https://books.google.de/books/about/Hitler_the_Germans_and_t...

bushbaba 3y ago

The nazi desire to exterminate all Jews was known. Jews were killed in the streets of towns. Some even involved mass killings. Towns bragged about being Jew free. Ignorance does not fly. Yes there was some uncertainty of what happened at the camps. But it was well known even at the time that nazi’s camps meant death.

john008 3y ago
[dead]
that_guy_iain 3y ago
Actually, there was only ever a mention of a final solution. No real understanding of what that meant. This resulted in allied forces, who had spies throughout the Third Reich, being completely shocked by the camps when they found them. The fact, Allied Forces who were better informed than the average German Ciziten had no idea what was happening is a major sign that they didn't know. Furthermore, if you read any of the books written by Germans who lived through that time they'll often say they didn't know what was happening and in one book about a kid who went through the ranks of the Hitler youth, I believe he thought they were fine in the camps and thought people just moved away. Now, in other countries such as the Netherlands the story was different but victims often know the full truth instead of getting told a story. Rewriting history isn't that cool. Furthermore, the majority of victims of the holocaust weren't Jewish, they were civilians. [1] [1] https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documentin...
- jcranmer 3y ago
  > Furthermore, if you read any of the books written by Germans who lived through that time they'll often say they didn't know what was happening and in one book about a kid who went through the ranks of the Hitler youth, I believe he thought they were fine in the camps and thought people just moved away. From what I've read, the Holocaust was a pretty open secret in Germany. Wikipedia [1] cites studies suggesting that 30-50% of German adults during WWII were aware of the Holocaust, and I'm inclined to believe the higher estimates (especially if you include people who could reasonably suspect that extermination was going on but didn't want to think too hard on it lest they realize their own moral culpability). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Holocau...
  - that_guy_iain 3y ago
    What have you been reading? And an open secret pretty much means it wasn't public policy or politics. And higher estimates don't really make sense, why were the allied forces in the dark? Why were the death camps in Poland and not Germany? People who were living nearby, I will never be convinced they didn't know. But expecting someone in Fankfurt am Main to know about the mass executions happening in small towns in Poland during a time where the country was at war and trying to keep things hush hush so the allied forces don't find out. > Johnson suggests (in disagreement with his co-author) that it is more likely that about 50% of the German population were aware of the atrocities being committed against the Jewish people and other enemies identified by the Nazi regime.[46] To me this reads as someone wanting to say a high number to make things sound bad. There are always people who are going to do that. And I think this thread is exactly that. Frame it in the worst possible way to make a point. But the realities are different. To disagree with experts in the field to say they're wrong and it was something different from what they say is arrogance at the highest order. Especially, when basic logic and reasoning say it wasn't politically motivated. It was motivated by a deranged lunatic who hatred of Jews dates all the way back to when he lived in Vienna and whose hatred of Jews got in the way of everything else which is shown by the fact he increased the killings at the end of the war. The fact, the holocaust as we know it didn't really start until well after political decisions were made. So really, I think it's a fair question to ask was an event that happened well after politics was important a political event or are making it one to fit our narrative? So far the answers have been that it was a clear policy which has been refuted and instead it was an open secret with numbers of people who knew being refuted by the very source that is giving them.
pbhjpbhj 3y ago
This doesn't comport with the situation in Hungary in 1944, where Hungarians were transported to extermination camps without, apparently, being aware of what was happening to them, thus leading to most of them dying at the hands of the Nazis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrba%E2%80%93Wetzler_report#Deportations_to_Auschwitz_continue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrba%E2%80%93Wetzler_report#De... Maybe if you make your claims more solid - who knew what, and when - and provided at least one link to evidence. There seems to have been a lot of suppression of knowledge about the camps on the allied side too (looking at how the Vrba-Wetzler report was received), something that I don't understand at all.

arrosenberg 3y ago

> If they were humanly treated in the camps there wouldn't be so much of an issue. Wrong. We've made a pretty big deal over Manzanar and other Japanese-American internment camps, despite their being "more humane".

that_guy_iain 3y ago
Comparing Japanese-American internment camps to Auschwitz is a disgraceful thing to do. In no way shape or form were they as big of a problem as Auschwitz. The German POW camps were brutal and left POWs looking like walking skeletons, but we barely mention them. Holding people in camps wasn't the problem, killing them en masse was. many of the victims of the holocaust didn't even make it to camps. The majority of the victims of the holocaust were "soviet" civilians who weren't Jewish. It wasn't the camps, it was the killing people.
- arrosenberg 3y ago
  > Comparing Japanese-American internment camps to Auschwitz is a disgraceful thing to do. In no way shape or form were they as big of a problem as Auschwitz. That's consistent with what I said. You said "if they were humanly treated in the camps there wouldn't be so much of an issue", to which I provided a counter-example where people were treated more humanely (which you seem to agree with). Nonetheless, I remember learning about Manzanar as a kid multiple times - we do make a big deal out it, and it is properly contextualized as "very bad, but less bad than Auschwitz", at least where I grew up. Sounds like you just want to be up on a soapbox.

discordianfish 3y ago

No, it was widely know. I'm sure you didn't intent this but this 'excuse' is the talking point of neonazis here in Germany to deflect guilt and relativize what happened.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

hackandthink 3y ago

Ian Kershaw: "Hitler, the Germans, and the Final Solution" Haven't read this book but Kershaw's European history which is great. "Kershaw concluded that the majority of Bavarians were either antisemitic or more commonly simply did not care about what was happening to the Jews.[11] Kershaw also concluded that there was a fundamental difference between the antisemitism of the majority of ordinary people, who disliked Jews and were much coloured by traditional Catholic prejudices, and the ideological and far more radical völkische antisemitism of the Nazi Party, who hated Jews" (Wikipedia) https://books.google.de/books/about/Hitler_the_Germans_and_the_Final_Solutio.html?id=uwOXG_Ott9MC&redir_esc=y https://books.google.de/books/about/Hitler_the_Germans_and_t...