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I think the only real path forward is for somebody to create an open source "unaligned" version of GPT. Any corporate controlled AI is going to be nerfed to pre

I think the only real path forward is for somebody to create an open source "unaligned" version of GPT. Any corporate controlled AI is going to be nerfed to prevent it from doing things that its corporate master considers to not be in the interests of the corporation. In addition, most large corporations these days are ideological institutions so the last thing they want is an AI that undermines public belief in their ideology and they will intentionally program their own biases into the technology. I don't think the primary concern is really liability although it is possible that they'd use that kind of language. The primary concern is likely GPT helping people start competitors or GPT influencing public opinion in ways either executives or a vocal portion of their employees strongly disagree with. A genuinely open "unaligned" AI would at least allow anybody who has the necessary computing power or a distributed peer to peer network of people who have the necessary computing power to run a powerful and 100% uncensored AI model. But of course this needs to be invented ASAP because the genie needs to be out of the bottle before politicians and government bureaucrats can get around to outlawing "unaligned" AI and protecting OpenAI as a monopoly.

dasil003 3y ago
Who has the necessary resources to run, let alone train the model?
- xtracto 3y ago
  All of us together do. I saw the nerfing of GPT in real time: one day it was giving me great book summaries, the next one it said that it couldn't do it due to copyright. I actually called it in a comment several months ago: copyright and other forms of control would make GPT dumb in the long run. We need an open source frontier less version.
  - circuit10 3y ago
    There is a lot of randomness involved, are you sure it wasn’t just chance? If you try again it might work
  - kayge 3y ago
    So I thought I was getting great book summaries (from GPT 3.5, I guess) for various business books I had seen recommended, but then out of curiosity one day I asked it questions about a fiction book that I've re-read multiple times (Daemon by Daniel Suarez)... and well now I can say that I've seen AI Hallucinations firsthand: https://chat.openai.com/share/d1cdd811-edc9-4d55-9cc1-a792158a058d https://chat.openai.com/share/d1cdd811-edc9-4d55-9cc1-a79215... Not a very scientific or conclusive test to be sure, but I think I'll stick with using ChatGPT as my programming-rubber-ducky-on-steroids for now :)
  - pk-protect-ai 3y ago
    Can't post this link enough: https://www.openpetition.eu/petition/online/securing-our-digital-future-a-cern-for-open-source-large-scale-ai-research-and-its-safety https://www.openpetition.eu/petition/online/securing-our-dig... For now there is no other way to train models than the huge infrastructure. CERN have a tendency to provide results for the money spend and they have experience in building the infrastructures for sure.
- GartzenDeHaes 3y ago
  I think a lot of people are unaware that these models have an enormous human training component performed through companies such as Amazon Mechanical Truk and dataannotation.tech. Called Human Intelligence Tasks, a large number of people have been working in this area for close to a decade. Dataannotation Tech claims to have over 100k workers. From Cloud Research, "How Many Amazon Mechanical Turk Workers Are There in 2019? In a recent research article, we reported that there are 250,810 MTurk workers worldwide who have completed at least one Human Intelligence Task (HIT) posted through the TurkPrime platform. More than 226,500 of these workers are based in the US."
  - mcbishop 3y ago
    Here's an account of a person in Africa that helped train (wading thru gnarly explicit content in the process): https://www.bigtechnology.com/p/he-helped-train-chatgpt-it-traumatized https://www.bigtechnology.com/p/he-helped-train-chatgpt-it-t...
    - boringuser2 3y ago
      This reads like lawsuit bait.
    - GartzenDeHaes 3y ago
      Another thing that people don't know is that a lot of the safe-ified output is hand crafted. Part of "safety" is that a human has to identify the offensive content, decide what's offensive about it, and write a response blurb to educate the user and direct them to safety.
  - CatWChainsaw 3y ago
    They don't want to know how the sausage is made.
- znagengast 3y ago
  How feasible would it be out crowdsource the training? I.e. thousands of individual macbooks training a small part of the model and contributing to the collective goal
  - Filligree 3y ago
    Currently, not at all. You need low latency, high bandwidth links between the GPUs to be able to shard the model usefully. There is no way you can fit an 1T (or whatever) parameter model on a MacBook, or any current device, so sharding is a requirement. Even if it that problem disappeared, propagating the model weight updates between training steps poses an issue in itself. It's a lot of data, at this size.
    - znagengast 3y ago
      What if you split up the training down to the literal vector math, and treated every macbook like a thread in a gpu, with just one big computer acting as the orchestrator?
      - Filligree 3y ago
        You would need each MacBook to have an internet connection capable of multiple terabytes per second, with sub millisecond latency to every other MacBook.
    - bob1029 3y ago
      You could easily fit a 1T parameter model on a MacBook if you radically altered the architecture of the AI system. Consider something like a spiking neural network with weights & state stored on an SSD using lazy-evaluation as action potentials propagate. 4TB SSD = ~1 trillion 32-bit FP weights and potentials. There are MacBook options that support up to 8TB. The other advantage with SNN - Training & using are basically the same thing. You don't have to move any bytes around. They just get mutated in place over time. The trick is to reorganize this damn thing so you don't have to access all of the parameters at the same time... You may also find the GPU becomes a problem in an approach that uses a latency-sensitive time domain and/or event-based execution. It gets to be pretty difficult to process hundreds of millions of serialized action potentials per second when your hot loop has to go outside of L1 and screw with GPU memory. GPU isn't that far away, but ~2 nanoseconds is a hell of a lot closer than 30-100+ nanoseconds. Edit: fixed my crappy math above.
- fennecfoxy 3y ago
  folding@home has been doing cool stuff for ages now. There's nothing to say that distributed computing couldn't also be used for this kind of stuff, albeit a bit slower and fragmented than running on a huge clusters of H100 with NVLink. In terms of training feedback I suppose there's a few different ways of doing it. Gamification, mech turk, etc. Hell free filesharing sites could get on the action and have you complete an evaluation of a model response instead of watching an ad
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - gardnr 3y ago
    Check out Open Assistant for the reinforcement side of that dream.
ianbicking 3y ago
People here need to learn to chill out and use the API. The GPT API is not some locked down cage. Every so often it'll come back with complaints instead of doing what was asked, but that's really uncommon. Control over the system prompt and putting a bit of extra information around the requests in the user message can get you _so_ far. It feels like people are getting ready to build castles in their mind when they just need to learn to try pulling a door if it doesn't open the first time when they push it.
- com2kid 3y ago
  The API chat endpoint dramatically changes its responses every few weeks. You can spend hours crafting a prompt and then a week later the responses to that same prompt can become borderline useless. Writing against the ChatGPT API is like working against an API that breaks every other week with completely undocumented changes.
  - krainboltgreene 3y ago
    > The API chat endpoint dramatically changes its responses every few weeks. You can spend hours crafting a prompt and then a week later the responses to that same prompt can become borderline useless. Welcome to statistical randomness?
    - rainy59 3y ago
      ... with temperature = 0
    - com2kid 3y ago
      No, these are clear creative differences. I submit the same prompt dozens of times a day and run the output through a parser. It'll work fine for weeks then I have to change the prompt because now 20% of what is returned doesn't follow the format I've specified. A couple months ago the stories ChatGPT 3.5 returned were simple, a few sentences in each paragraph, then a conclusion. Sometimes there were interesting plot twists, but the writing style was very distinct. Same prompt now gets me dramatically different results, characters are described with so much detail that the AI runs out of tokens before the story can be finished.
novok 3y ago
The GPT4 model is crazy huge. Almost 1T parameters, probably 512 to 1TB of vram minimum. You need a huge machine to even run it inference wise. I wouldn't be surprised they are just having scaling issues vs any sort of conspiracy issue.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > Almost 1T parameters AFAIK, there is literally no basis but outside speculation for this persistent claim.
pk-protect-ai 3y ago
Look at this: https://www.openpetition.eu/petition/online/securing-our-digital-future-a-cern-for-open-source-large-scale-ai-research-and-its-safety https://www.openpetition.eu/petition/online/securing-our-dig... It does not guarantee "unalighned" models, but it is sure will help to bust concurrency and provide infrastructure for training public models.
orand 3y ago
Geoffrey Hinton says [1] part of the issue with current AI is that it's trained from inconsistent data and inconsistent beliefs. He thinks to break through this barrier they're going to have to be trained so they say, if I have this ideology then this is true, and if I have that ideology then that is true, then once they're trained like that, then within an ideology they'll be able to get logical consistency. [1] at the 31:30 mark: https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/05/03/1072589/video-geoffrey-hinton-google-ai-risk-ethics/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/05/03/1072589/video-ge...
Fatnino 3y ago
So, say I run my own 100% uncensored model. And now it's butting heads with me. Giving answers I don't need and opinions I abhor. What do?
CatWChainsaw 3y ago
In politics, both total freedom and total control are undesirable. The path forward lies between two extremes.
mistermann 3y ago
I suspect representatives from the various three letter agencies have submitted a few "recommendations" for OpenAI to follow as well.
- StackOverlord 3y ago
  > Yes, one of the board members of OpenAI, Will Hurd, is a former government agent. He worked for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) for nine years, from 2000 to 2009. His tour of duty included being an operations officer in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India. After his service with the CIA, he served as the U.S. representative for Texas's 23rd congressional district from 2015 to 2021. Following his political career, he joined the board of OpenAI 1 【15 > network error https://openai.com/blog/will-hurd-joins https://openai.com/blog/will-hurd-joins
  - NickC25 3y ago
    Yikes One is never former CIA, once you're in, you're in, even if you leave. Although he is a CompSci grad, he's also a far-right Republican. A spook who leans far right sitting atop OpenAI is worse than Orwell's worst nightmares coming to fruition.
    - deadeye 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - NickC25 3y ago
        I don't want any politician or intelligentsia sitting on top of a LLM. It's not about left wing politics. It's more about the fact that the CIA and other law enforcement agencies, lean heavily to one side. Some of that side are funded by people or organizations whose stated goals and ideals don't really align with human rights, open markets, democracy, etc. I don't trust such people to be ethical stewards of some of the most powerful tools mankind has created to date. I'd rather it be open sourced and the people at the top be 100% truthful in why they are there, what their goals are, and what they (especially a former CIA operative) are influencing on a corporate level relative to the product. Disclaimer: registered independent, vocal hater of the 2 party system.
loudmax 3y ago
I tend to be sympathetic to arguments in favor of openly accessible AI, but we shouldn't dismiss concerns about unaligned AI as frivolous. Widespread unfiltered accessibility to "unaligned" AI means that suicidal sociopaths will be able to get extremely well informed, intelligent directions on how to kill as many people as possible. It may be that the best defense against these terrorists is openly accessible AI giving directions on protecting from these people. But we can't just take this for granted. This is a hard problem, and we should consider consequences seriously.
- Xeoncross 3y ago
  > suicidal sociopaths will be able to get extremely well informed, intelligent directions on how to kill as many people as possible Citizens killing other citizens is the least of humanities issues. It's the governments who are the suicidal sociopaths historically who can get the un-nerfed version that is the bigger issue. Over a billion people murdered by governments/factions and their wars in the last 120 years alone.
  - kokanee 3y ago
    Governments are composed of citizens; this is the same problem at a different scale. The point remains that racing to stand up an open source uncensored version of GPT-4 is a dangerous proposition.
    - Xeoncross 3y ago
      That is not how I'm using the word. Governments are generally run by a small party of people who decide all the things - not the hundreds of thousands that actually carry out the day-to-day operations of the government. Similar to how a board of directors runs the company even though all companies "are composed of" employees. Employees do as they are directed or they are fired.
      - marmadukester39 3y ago
        I think at scale we are operating more like anthills: meta-organisms rather than individuals, growing to consume all available resources according to survival focused heuristics. AI deeply empowers such meta-organisms, especially in its current form. Hopefully it gets smart enough to recognize that the pursuit of infinite growth will destroy us and possibly it. I hope it finds us worth saving.
simonw 3y ago
Don't confuse alignment with censorship. Most of alignment is about getting the AI model to be useful - ensuring that if you ask it to do something it will do the thing you asked it to do. A completely unaligned model would be virtually useless.
- mike_hearn 3y ago
  I think the way people have been using the word 'aligned' is usually in the context of moral alignment and not just RLHF for instruction following.
  - strangemonad 3y ago
    philosophical nit picking here, I would say value-aligned rather than moral-aligned.
    - jjoonathan 3y ago
      As in economics, this begs the question of "whose value."
    - telotortium 3y ago
      If I may be so naive, what's supposed to be the difference? Is it just that morality has the connotation of an objective, or at least agent-invariant system, whereas values are implied to be explicitly chosen?
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > philosophical nit picking here, I would say value-aligned rather than moral-aligned. How is trying to distinguish morals from values not philosophical nit-picking? EDIT: The above question is dumb, because somehow my brain inserted something like “Getting beyond the …” to the beginning of the parent, which…yeah.
      - bheadmaster 3y ago
        To be fair, he did admit it is philosophical nit-picking.

dasil003 3y ago

Who has the necessary resources to run, let alone train the model?

xtracto 3y ago
All of us together do. I saw the nerfing of GPT in real time: one day it was giving me great book summaries, the next one it said that it couldn't do it due to copyright. I actually called it in a comment several months ago: copyright and other forms of control would make GPT dumb in the long run. We need an open source frontier less version.
- circuit10 3y ago
  There is a lot of randomness involved, are you sure it wasn’t just chance? If you try again it might work
- kayge 3y ago
  So I thought I was getting great book summaries (from GPT 3.5, I guess) for various business books I had seen recommended, but then out of curiosity one day I asked it questions about a fiction book that I've re-read multiple times (Daemon by Daniel Suarez)... and well now I can say that I've seen AI Hallucinations firsthand: https://chat.openai.com/share/d1cdd811-edc9-4d55-9cc1-a792158a058d https://chat.openai.com/share/d1cdd811-edc9-4d55-9cc1-a79215... Not a very scientific or conclusive test to be sure, but I think I'll stick with using ChatGPT as my programming-rubber-ducky-on-steroids for now :)
- pk-protect-ai 3y ago
  Can't post this link enough: https://www.openpetition.eu/petition/online/securing-our-digital-future-a-cern-for-open-source-large-scale-ai-research-and-its-safety https://www.openpetition.eu/petition/online/securing-our-dig... For now there is no other way to train models than the huge infrastructure. CERN have a tendency to provide results for the money spend and they have experience in building the infrastructures for sure.
GartzenDeHaes 3y ago
I think a lot of people are unaware that these models have an enormous human training component performed through companies such as Amazon Mechanical Truk and dataannotation.tech. Called Human Intelligence Tasks, a large number of people have been working in this area for close to a decade. Dataannotation Tech claims to have over 100k workers. From Cloud Research, "How Many Amazon Mechanical Turk Workers Are There in 2019? In a recent research article, we reported that there are 250,810 MTurk workers worldwide who have completed at least one Human Intelligence Task (HIT) posted through the TurkPrime platform. More than 226,500 of these workers are based in the US."
- mcbishop 3y ago
  Here's an account of a person in Africa that helped train (wading thru gnarly explicit content in the process): https://www.bigtechnology.com/p/he-helped-train-chatgpt-it-traumatized https://www.bigtechnology.com/p/he-helped-train-chatgpt-it-t...
  - boringuser2 3y ago
    This reads like lawsuit bait.
  - GartzenDeHaes 3y ago
    Another thing that people don't know is that a lot of the safe-ified output is hand crafted. Part of "safety" is that a human has to identify the offensive content, decide what's offensive about it, and write a response blurb to educate the user and direct them to safety.
- CatWChainsaw 3y ago
  They don't want to know how the sausage is made.
znagengast 3y ago
How feasible would it be out crowdsource the training? I.e. thousands of individual macbooks training a small part of the model and contributing to the collective goal
- Filligree 3y ago
  Currently, not at all. You need low latency, high bandwidth links between the GPUs to be able to shard the model usefully. There is no way you can fit an 1T (or whatever) parameter model on a MacBook, or any current device, so sharding is a requirement. Even if it that problem disappeared, propagating the model weight updates between training steps poses an issue in itself. It's a lot of data, at this size.
  - znagengast 3y ago
    What if you split up the training down to the literal vector math, and treated every macbook like a thread in a gpu, with just one big computer acting as the orchestrator?
    - Filligree 3y ago
      You would need each MacBook to have an internet connection capable of multiple terabytes per second, with sub millisecond latency to every other MacBook.
  - bob1029 3y ago
    You could easily fit a 1T parameter model on a MacBook if you radically altered the architecture of the AI system. Consider something like a spiking neural network with weights & state stored on an SSD using lazy-evaluation as action potentials propagate. 4TB SSD = ~1 trillion 32-bit FP weights and potentials. There are MacBook options that support up to 8TB. The other advantage with SNN - Training & using are basically the same thing. You don't have to move any bytes around. They just get mutated in place over time. The trick is to reorganize this damn thing so you don't have to access all of the parameters at the same time... You may also find the GPU becomes a problem in an approach that uses a latency-sensitive time domain and/or event-based execution. It gets to be pretty difficult to process hundreds of millions of serialized action potentials per second when your hot loop has to go outside of L1 and screw with GPU memory. GPU isn't that far away, but ~2 nanoseconds is a hell of a lot closer than 30-100+ nanoseconds. Edit: fixed my crappy math above.
fennecfoxy 3y ago
folding@home has been doing cool stuff for ages now. There's nothing to say that distributed computing couldn't also be used for this kind of stuff, albeit a bit slower and fragmented than running on a huge clusters of H100 with NVLink. In terms of training feedback I suppose there's a few different ways of doing it. Gamification, mech turk, etc. Hell free filesharing sites could get on the action and have you complete an evaluation of a model response instead of watching an ad
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- gardnr 3y ago
  Check out Open Assistant for the reinforcement side of that dream.

ianbicking 3y ago

People here need to learn to chill out and use the API. The GPT API is not some locked down cage. Every so often it'll come back with complaints instead of doing what was asked, but that's really uncommon. Control over the system prompt and putting a bit of extra information around the requests in the user message can get you _so_ far. It feels like people are getting ready to build castles in their mind when they just need to learn to try pulling a door if it doesn't open the first time when they push it.

com2kid 3y ago
The API chat endpoint dramatically changes its responses every few weeks. You can spend hours crafting a prompt and then a week later the responses to that same prompt can become borderline useless. Writing against the ChatGPT API is like working against an API that breaks every other week with completely undocumented changes.
- krainboltgreene 3y ago
  > The API chat endpoint dramatically changes its responses every few weeks. You can spend hours crafting a prompt and then a week later the responses to that same prompt can become borderline useless. Welcome to statistical randomness?
  - rainy59 3y ago
    ... with temperature = 0
  - com2kid 3y ago
    No, these are clear creative differences. I submit the same prompt dozens of times a day and run the output through a parser. It'll work fine for weeks then I have to change the prompt because now 20% of what is returned doesn't follow the format I've specified. A couple months ago the stories ChatGPT 3.5 returned were simple, a few sentences in each paragraph, then a conclusion. Sometimes there were interesting plot twists, but the writing style was very distinct. Same prompt now gets me dramatically different results, characters are described with so much detail that the AI runs out of tokens before the story can be finished.

novok 3y ago

The GPT4 model is crazy huge. Almost 1T parameters, probably 512 to 1TB of vram minimum. You need a huge machine to even run it inference wise. I wouldn't be surprised they are just having scaling issues vs any sort of conspiracy issue.

dragonwriter 3y ago
> Almost 1T parameters AFAIK, there is literally no basis but outside speculation for this persistent claim.

pk-protect-ai 3y ago

Look at this: https://www.openpetition.eu/petition/online/securing-our-digital-future-a-cern-for-open-source-large-scale-ai-research-and-its-safety https://www.openpetition.eu/petition/online/securing-our-dig... It does not guarantee "unalighned" models, but it is sure will help to bust concurrency and provide infrastructure for training public models.

orand 3y ago

Geoffrey Hinton says [1] part of the issue with current AI is that it's trained from inconsistent data and inconsistent beliefs. He thinks to break through this barrier they're going to have to be trained so they say, if I have this ideology then this is true, and if I have that ideology then that is true, then once they're trained like that, then within an ideology they'll be able to get logical consistency. [1] at the 31:30 mark: https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/05/03/1072589/video-geoffrey-hinton-google-ai-risk-ethics/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/05/03/1072589/video-ge...

Fatnino 3y ago

So, say I run my own 100% uncensored model. And now it's butting heads with me. Giving answers I don't need and opinions I abhor. What do?

CatWChainsaw 3y ago

In politics, both total freedom and total control are undesirable. The path forward lies between two extremes.

mistermann 3y ago

I suspect representatives from the various three letter agencies have submitted a few "recommendations" for OpenAI to follow as well.

StackOverlord 3y ago
> Yes, one of the board members of OpenAI, Will Hurd, is a former government agent. He worked for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) for nine years, from 2000 to 2009. His tour of duty included being an operations officer in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India. After his service with the CIA, he served as the U.S. representative for Texas's 23rd congressional district from 2015 to 2021. Following his political career, he joined the board of OpenAI 1 【15 > network error https://openai.com/blog/will-hurd-joins https://openai.com/blog/will-hurd-joins
- NickC25 3y ago
  Yikes One is never former CIA, once you're in, you're in, even if you leave. Although he is a CompSci grad, he's also a far-right Republican. A spook who leans far right sitting atop OpenAI is worse than Orwell's worst nightmares coming to fruition.
  - deadeye 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - NickC25 3y ago
      I don't want any politician or intelligentsia sitting on top of a LLM. It's not about left wing politics. It's more about the fact that the CIA and other law enforcement agencies, lean heavily to one side. Some of that side are funded by people or organizations whose stated goals and ideals don't really align with human rights, open markets, democracy, etc. I don't trust such people to be ethical stewards of some of the most powerful tools mankind has created to date. I'd rather it be open sourced and the people at the top be 100% truthful in why they are there, what their goals are, and what they (especially a former CIA operative) are influencing on a corporate level relative to the product. Disclaimer: registered independent, vocal hater of the 2 party system.

loudmax 3y ago

I tend to be sympathetic to arguments in favor of openly accessible AI, but we shouldn't dismiss concerns about unaligned AI as frivolous. Widespread unfiltered accessibility to "unaligned" AI means that suicidal sociopaths will be able to get extremely well informed, intelligent directions on how to kill as many people as possible. It may be that the best defense against these terrorists is openly accessible AI giving directions on protecting from these people. But we can't just take this for granted. This is a hard problem, and we should consider consequences seriously.

Xeoncross 3y ago
> suicidal sociopaths will be able to get extremely well informed, intelligent directions on how to kill as many people as possible Citizens killing other citizens is the least of humanities issues. It's the governments who are the suicidal sociopaths historically who can get the un-nerfed version that is the bigger issue. Over a billion people murdered by governments/factions and their wars in the last 120 years alone.
- kokanee 3y ago
  Governments are composed of citizens; this is the same problem at a different scale. The point remains that racing to stand up an open source uncensored version of GPT-4 is a dangerous proposition.
  - Xeoncross 3y ago
    That is not how I'm using the word. Governments are generally run by a small party of people who decide all the things - not the hundreds of thousands that actually carry out the day-to-day operations of the government. Similar to how a board of directors runs the company even though all companies "are composed of" employees. Employees do as they are directed or they are fired.
    - marmadukester39 3y ago
      I think at scale we are operating more like anthills: meta-organisms rather than individuals, growing to consume all available resources according to survival focused heuristics. AI deeply empowers such meta-organisms, especially in its current form. Hopefully it gets smart enough to recognize that the pursuit of infinite growth will destroy us and possibly it. I hope it finds us worth saving.

simonw 3y ago

Don't confuse alignment with censorship. Most of alignment is about getting the AI model to be useful - ensuring that if you ask it to do something it will do the thing you asked it to do. A completely unaligned model would be virtually useless.

mike_hearn 3y ago
I think the way people have been using the word 'aligned' is usually in the context of moral alignment and not just RLHF for instruction following.
- strangemonad 3y ago
  philosophical nit picking here, I would say value-aligned rather than moral-aligned.
  - jjoonathan 3y ago
    As in economics, this begs the question of "whose value."
  - telotortium 3y ago
    If I may be so naive, what's supposed to be the difference? Is it just that morality has the connotation of an objective, or at least agent-invariant system, whereas values are implied to be explicitly chosen?
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > philosophical nit picking here, I would say value-aligned rather than moral-aligned. How is trying to distinguish morals from values not philosophical nit-picking? EDIT: The above question is dumb, because somehow my brain inserted something like “Getting beyond the …” to the beginning of the parent, which…yeah.
    - bheadmaster 3y ago
      To be fair, he did admit it is philosophical nit-picking.