3 ms·

Time to go back to bottles and paper. But, right now bottles, and paper are not recycled in any significant amount. We are starting to see the costs of "cheap

by jmclnx 3y ago

Time to go back to bottles and paper. But, right now bottles, and paper are not recycled in any significant amount. We are starting to see the costs of "cheap" plastics, this will probably take more then was saved in costs + some to cleanup. Time to force these companies to start paying large amounts for the cleanup. As a very young child, I remember there were paper drives a few times a years were people would save their paper for these drives. The paper was then recycled. Bottles were also recycled also.

Ekaros 3y ago
I'm not entirely sure many paper containers are better than plastic. Many times they end up in some combination of paper and plastic, or paper, plastic and metal. Which makes them impossible to recycle.
blacksmith_tb 3y ago
I assume you mean GLASS bottles (since the plastic ones are part of the current problem), we recycle about 1/3 of those in the US[1], but in the EU the rate is more than twice that at present[2]. Paper is even better, depending on the form, for example 96% of all cardboard is recycled in the US (which I take it is driven primarily by businesses). 1: https://www.epa.gov/facts-and-figures-about-materials-waste-and-recycling/glass-material-specific-data https://www.epa.gov/facts-and-figures-about-materials-waste-... 2: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1258851/glass-recycling-rate-in-europe/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1258851/glass-recycling-...
- dboreham 3y ago
  Glass bottles can be re-used, not recycled. That's how milk was delivered when I was a kid. Milkman took the empty bottles.
  - blacksmith_tb 3y ago
    For sure, I know in Germany reuse of beer bottles is still common, if not without a few gotchas[1]. Clearly one advantage of glass and paper both is that they are not nearly as polluting as plastics when the aren't recycled, glass is just silica, paper breaks down pretty quickly. 1: https://www.dw.com/en/german-beer-producers-running-out-of-bottles/a-44778328 https://www.dw.com/en/german-beer-producers-running-out-of-b...
- jmclnx 3y ago
  Yes, glass bottles.
mikestew 3y ago
As a very young child, I remember there were paper drives... Newspaper drives. Like, you let your newspapers that are printed on real wood pulp pile up, then the Boy Scouts come and pick that pile up. But two things: 1. Who the hell still gets a physical newspaper anymore? (Yes, we all know you do, Captain Pedantic.) 2. Were I a physical paper subscriber, I would toss it in the recycling bin (a dearth of which were why we had "paper drives" back in the day) when I'm done. Bottles were recycled, yes, and Federal law requires that every time the topic comes up that we all be reminded that glass bottles weigh a fuckton, and the extra fossil fuels required to tote them around might make it a net loss on environment-saving. Though I'll admit I've not seen solid numbers (as in, perhaps a real study) one way or the other.
- truculent 3y ago
  Something I often wonder about this is how much are the assumptions about the fuel cost of transport based on the current economic mode? For example, if we outright banned plastic bottles, would that incentivise a more distributed network of recycling and bottling centres, bringing the transport costs back down? Likewise, I see similar statistics around plastic packaging reducing food spoilage during transport. To a know-nothing like me, it feels as though the real effect would be lessened by the economy finding a new equilibrium in response to a plastic ban, but I have no idea how much we might expect that effect to be, or what kind of timescale and capital investment it might require.
- foxyv 3y ago
  There are zero waste alternatives that don't even need to recycle. You just wash containers when they are returned and then re-use them. I honestly would prefer that to all the junk in weird boxes and marketing that intentionally makes it harder to shop. I started buying spices in bulk lately and it's less than 1/10 the cost of packaged spices... https://ecocart.io/zero-waste-grocery-shopping/ https://ecocart.io/zero-waste-grocery-shopping/
- 29athrowaway 3y ago
  Mail spam not only produces more trash than newspapers, it also uses types of paper that are less recyclable.
Alupis 3y ago
> Time to go back to bottles and paper. In the 90's, it was all about saving the rainforest and reducing paper usage. Which led to the rise of plastic bags and bottles. Turns out - doing what sounds and feels good is often completely unscientific. A la banning plastic straws...
- pier25 3y ago
  The fundamental problem is there are too many humans on Earth
- scrlk 3y ago
  > A la banning plastic straws... ...and replacing them with paper straws containing PFAS: https://cen.acs.org/environment/persistent-pollutants/Biodegradabledrinking-straws-contain-PFAS/99/i11 https://cen.acs.org/environment/persistent-pollutants/Biodeg...
thedataslinger 3y ago
There were never "cost" savings. Look up "negative externalization"; this has become (or, arguably, always has been) the modus operandi of capitalism.

by jmclnx 3y ago

Ekaros 3y ago

I'm not entirely sure many paper containers are better than plastic. Many times they end up in some combination of paper and plastic, or paper, plastic and metal. Which makes them impossible to recycle.

blacksmith_tb 3y ago

I assume you mean GLASS bottles (since the plastic ones are part of the current problem), we recycle about 1/3 of those in the US[1], but in the EU the rate is more than twice that at present[2]. Paper is even better, depending on the form, for example 96% of all cardboard is recycled in the US (which I take it is driven primarily by businesses). 1: https://www.epa.gov/facts-and-figures-about-materials-waste-and-recycling/glass-material-specific-data https://www.epa.gov/facts-and-figures-about-materials-waste-... 2: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1258851/glass-recycling-rate-in-europe/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1258851/glass-recycling-...

dboreham 3y ago
Glass bottles can be re-used, not recycled. That's how milk was delivered when I was a kid. Milkman took the empty bottles.
- blacksmith_tb 3y ago
  For sure, I know in Germany reuse of beer bottles is still common, if not without a few gotchas[1]. Clearly one advantage of glass and paper both is that they are not nearly as polluting as plastics when the aren't recycled, glass is just silica, paper breaks down pretty quickly. 1: https://www.dw.com/en/german-beer-producers-running-out-of-bottles/a-44778328 https://www.dw.com/en/german-beer-producers-running-out-of-b...
jmclnx 3y ago
Yes, glass bottles.

mikestew 3y ago

As a very young child, I remember there were paper drives... Newspaper drives. Like, you let your newspapers that are printed on real wood pulp pile up, then the Boy Scouts come and pick that pile up. But two things: 1. Who the hell still gets a physical newspaper anymore? (Yes, we all know you do, Captain Pedantic.) 2. Were I a physical paper subscriber, I would toss it in the recycling bin (a dearth of which were why we had "paper drives" back in the day) when I'm done. Bottles were recycled, yes, and Federal law requires that every time the topic comes up that we all be reminded that glass bottles weigh a fuckton, and the extra fossil fuels required to tote them around might make it a net loss on environment-saving. Though I'll admit I've not seen solid numbers (as in, perhaps a real study) one way or the other.

truculent 3y ago
Something I often wonder about this is how much are the assumptions about the fuel cost of transport based on the current economic mode? For example, if we outright banned plastic bottles, would that incentivise a more distributed network of recycling and bottling centres, bringing the transport costs back down? Likewise, I see similar statistics around plastic packaging reducing food spoilage during transport. To a know-nothing like me, it feels as though the real effect would be lessened by the economy finding a new equilibrium in response to a plastic ban, but I have no idea how much we might expect that effect to be, or what kind of timescale and capital investment it might require.
foxyv 3y ago
There are zero waste alternatives that don't even need to recycle. You just wash containers when they are returned and then re-use them. I honestly would prefer that to all the junk in weird boxes and marketing that intentionally makes it harder to shop. I started buying spices in bulk lately and it's less than 1/10 the cost of packaged spices... https://ecocart.io/zero-waste-grocery-shopping/ https://ecocart.io/zero-waste-grocery-shopping/
29athrowaway 3y ago
Mail spam not only produces more trash than newspapers, it also uses types of paper that are less recyclable.

Alupis 3y ago

> Time to go back to bottles and paper. In the 90's, it was all about saving the rainforest and reducing paper usage. Which led to the rise of plastic bags and bottles. Turns out - doing what sounds and feels good is often completely unscientific. A la banning plastic straws...

pier25 3y ago
The fundamental problem is there are too many humans on Earth
scrlk 3y ago
> A la banning plastic straws... ...and replacing them with paper straws containing PFAS: https://cen.acs.org/environment/persistent-pollutants/Biodegradabledrinking-straws-contain-PFAS/99/i11 https://cen.acs.org/environment/persistent-pollutants/Biodeg...

thedataslinger 3y ago

There were never "cost" savings. Look up "negative externalization"; this has become (or, arguably, always has been) the modus operandi of capitalism.