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This is yet another "We found a community project providing us with billions of dollars in free work but don't find it worth the effort to contribute anything b

This is yet another "We found a community project providing us with billions of dollars in free work but don't find it worth the effort to contribute anything back"

iLoveOncall 3y ago
I may get downvoted, but if OSM was not fine with this exact situation happening, then they shouldn't license it the way they do. Nothing seems to indicate so far that they're not fine with the situation so it looks like everyone is happy.
- rPlayer6554 3y ago
  I think both sentiments can be valid. If OSM really needs those contributions they need to take responsibility for updating the license. But we as a community should encourage companies to give back to the OSS projects they benefit from.
- pietervdvn 3y ago
  Well, it is not as if the OSM-community is a monolithic one. Some people are hardline anti-corporate and don't like this; others are part of a big corporation and see this as business as usual. Even if Lyft would not give back in some form (spoiler: they do, see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lyft https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lyft), it spreads awareness and drivers will figure out they can fix issues themselves.
refulgentis 3y ago
You think they wanted to own more of their product, integrated OSM, and now if there's complaints or things to change they're like "sorry nah"? That doesn't sound right to me, I'm curious if you have any examples or sources
- reaperman 3y ago
  I think GP is saying they expect Lyft respond to complaints or things to change by fixing them in their internal OSM database, but maybe not propagate those changes back to canonical OSM for everyone else to enjoy.
  - Ajedi32 3y ago
    Couldn't that become hard to maintain after a while though, once the OSM map changes and they start getting conflicts? I think that's often the biggest reason why corps contribute back to open source projects rather than maintaining internal forks for everything. I guess it's possible though they could just deal with that if they feel like having better maps is a significant competitive advantage, but if the goal is just to not be dependent on Google upstreaming the edits sounds like a better idea.
squokko 3y ago
If OSM doesn't want this to happen then OSM can use different license terms.
shp0ngle 3y ago
Big corps that use OSM are actually contributing a lot back into OSM by actually fixing data issues. I have seen that first-hand; at a Corp that was using OSM, they had a big team doing just that the whole working day. Just fixing issues in OSM that the customer have reported. I think they in the end decided to fork OSM and make it proprietary to keep the data in-house; but I might be wrong. I was not there anymore. edit: maybe I am wrong. It was Grab, "uber for Asia". They still edit OSM it seems... https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Grab#Grab_Data_Team https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Grab#Grab_Data_Team edit2: the users seem to be inactive now, so maybe I was right. I don't know. edit3: when I look at the corporate members, lots of them seem to be taxi companies. I guess it makes sense. I see Gojek, Grab and Bolt. https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Corporate_Members https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Corporate_Members
- lefuturiste 3y ago
  If they fork it and use the data publicly, it need to be shared in the same license (ODBL)
- piebro 3y ago
  Looking at all edits done by osm member affiliated with Grab from that wiki list (https://piebro.github.io/openstreetmap-statistics/#b34d https://piebro.github.io/openstreetmap-statistics/#b34d) it seems they contributed a lot of edits (21M in total, sixth largest company contributor). The amount of edits slowed down on the last year though.
  - shp0ngle 3y ago
    Wow, meta has _millions_ edits per month. So does Amazon.
acslater00 3y ago
Lyft contributed essentially everything back to OSM
- Twirrim 3y ago
  So this is another example of HN commenters getting up on their high horse before gathering facts? Say it isn't so!
  - RobotToaster 3y ago
    Honestly you would think Lyft would be more explicit about contributing back in their article. This isn't the first time I've seen a company contributing back to open source but completely neglecting to mention it in their post about it. It's weird, usually companies love to virtue signal about any tiny thing they do for society.
    - hackernewds 3y ago
      should we commend them for doing that or pull them down?
ikawe 3y ago
The ODbL requires Lyft to contribute back any edits they make. https://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/summary/ https://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/summary/ > Share-Alike: If you publicly use any adapted version of this database, or works produced from an adapted database, you must also offer that adapted database under the ODbL.
elliotto 3y ago
This is capitalism's only strategy.
hinkley 3y ago
I really wish that companies had a donation program where employees get to vote on their favorite project, and the company cuts a check every time a project hits 50 votes (including things that got 20 votes each for the last 3 election cycles)
- codethief 3y ago
  We have something like this at our firm (IT consulting shop). Every Christmas, everyone gets to propose & vote on projects (software and otherwise) that we should fund.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    Any good literature on how to convince companies to do this?
    - codethief 3y ago
      Oof, I'm afraid I don't know of any. Our company is generally very, let's say, employee-oriented and has been doing donations this way for a long time (longer than I've been there), so I don't know how our bosses came to like this approach. One argument would certainly be: Employees / engineers tend to know much better which projects are worth supporting and/or in need of financial help.
- minhazm 3y ago
  Microsoft does this, though not sure if the program is still active. https://github.com/microsoft/foss-fund https://github.com/microsoft/foss-fund
NelsonMinar 3y ago
"Lyft contributed the overwhelming majority of the new data back into OSM" according to this comment posted after yours: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36127623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36127623

This is yet another "We found a community project providing us with billions of dollars in free work but don't find it worth the effort to contribute anything back"

iLoveOncall 3y ago

I may get downvoted, but if OSM was not fine with this exact situation happening, then they shouldn't license it the way they do. Nothing seems to indicate so far that they're not fine with the situation so it looks like everyone is happy.

rPlayer6554 3y ago
I think both sentiments can be valid. If OSM really needs those contributions they need to take responsibility for updating the license. But we as a community should encourage companies to give back to the OSS projects they benefit from.
pietervdvn 3y ago
Well, it is not as if the OSM-community is a monolithic one. Some people are hardline anti-corporate and don't like this; others are part of a big corporation and see this as business as usual. Even if Lyft would not give back in some form (spoiler: they do, see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lyft https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lyft), it spreads awareness and drivers will figure out they can fix issues themselves.

refulgentis 3y ago

You think they wanted to own more of their product, integrated OSM, and now if there's complaints or things to change they're like "sorry nah"? That doesn't sound right to me, I'm curious if you have any examples or sources

reaperman 3y ago
I think GP is saying they expect Lyft respond to complaints or things to change by fixing them in their internal OSM database, but maybe not propagate those changes back to canonical OSM for everyone else to enjoy.
- Ajedi32 3y ago
  Couldn't that become hard to maintain after a while though, once the OSM map changes and they start getting conflicts? I think that's often the biggest reason why corps contribute back to open source projects rather than maintaining internal forks for everything. I guess it's possible though they could just deal with that if they feel like having better maps is a significant competitive advantage, but if the goal is just to not be dependent on Google upstreaming the edits sounds like a better idea.

squokko 3y ago

If OSM doesn't want this to happen then OSM can use different license terms.

shp0ngle 3y ago

Big corps that use OSM are actually contributing a lot back into OSM by actually fixing data issues. I have seen that first-hand; at a Corp that was using OSM, they had a big team doing just that the whole working day. Just fixing issues in OSM that the customer have reported. I think they in the end decided to fork OSM and make it proprietary to keep the data in-house; but I might be wrong. I was not there anymore. edit: maybe I am wrong. It was Grab, "uber for Asia". They still edit OSM it seems... https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Grab#Grab_Data_Team https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Grab#Grab_Data_Team edit2: the users seem to be inactive now, so maybe I was right. I don't know. edit3: when I look at the corporate members, lots of them seem to be taxi companies. I guess it makes sense. I see Gojek, Grab and Bolt. https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Corporate_Members https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Corporate_Members

lefuturiste 3y ago
If they fork it and use the data publicly, it need to be shared in the same license (ODBL)
piebro 3y ago
Looking at all edits done by osm member affiliated with Grab from that wiki list (https://piebro.github.io/openstreetmap-statistics/#b34d https://piebro.github.io/openstreetmap-statistics/#b34d) it seems they contributed a lot of edits (21M in total, sixth largest company contributor). The amount of edits slowed down on the last year though.
- shp0ngle 3y ago
  Wow, meta has _millions_ edits per month. So does Amazon.

acslater00 3y ago

Lyft contributed essentially everything back to OSM

Twirrim 3y ago
So this is another example of HN commenters getting up on their high horse before gathering facts? Say it isn't so!
- RobotToaster 3y ago
  Honestly you would think Lyft would be more explicit about contributing back in their article. This isn't the first time I've seen a company contributing back to open source but completely neglecting to mention it in their post about it. It's weird, usually companies love to virtue signal about any tiny thing they do for society.
  - hackernewds 3y ago
    should we commend them for doing that or pull them down?

ikawe 3y ago

The ODbL requires Lyft to contribute back any edits they make. https://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/summary/ https://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/summary/ > Share-Alike: If you publicly use any adapted version of this database, or works produced from an adapted database, you must also offer that adapted database under the ODbL.

elliotto 3y ago

This is capitalism's only strategy.

hinkley 3y ago

I really wish that companies had a donation program where employees get to vote on their favorite project, and the company cuts a check every time a project hits 50 votes (including things that got 20 votes each for the last 3 election cycles)

codethief 3y ago
We have something like this at our firm (IT consulting shop). Every Christmas, everyone gets to propose & vote on projects (software and otherwise) that we should fund.
- hinkley 3y ago
  Any good literature on how to convince companies to do this?
  - codethief 3y ago
    Oof, I'm afraid I don't know of any. Our company is generally very, let's say, employee-oriented and has been doing donations this way for a long time (longer than I've been there), so I don't know how our bosses came to like this approach. One argument would certainly be: Employees / engineers tend to know much better which projects are worth supporting and/or in need of financial help.
minhazm 3y ago
Microsoft does this, though not sure if the program is still active. https://github.com/microsoft/foss-fund https://github.com/microsoft/foss-fund

NelsonMinar 3y ago

"Lyft contributed the overwhelming majority of the new data back into OSM" according to this comment posted after yours: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36127623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36127623