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>I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. Or maybe people everywhere else need to really reflect on how underpaid th

>I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. Or maybe people everywhere else need to really reflect on how underpaid they are. It’s not like the revenue of tech companies is lower outside of the US, so why isn’t more of it ending up in developers’ pockets, where it should go?

paddim8 3y ago
Western Europe has something called income equality, you should try it some time. Or well, more or it. A cashier in Sweden earns a very liveable wage, quite close to the average wage, while a programmer earns maybe 75% more than that, if not twice as much. That's already a significant difference. I'm a student and get 1200€ a month (not only is university free, we also get paid to study). With this, I have my own apartment with my own kitchen and all and am still able to save 500 a month. When I start working and get an average salary (the starting salary for programmers is about the same as the average salary for the entire population), I will spend a bit more, but still probably have 1-1.5k€ left every month. That is a lot. Then after some years, that would increase by a thousand or so. Why should I expect more money than that? I don't deserve more than that. Housing is expensive here too, but not nearly as bad as in the US, so we simply don't need as high salaries. In Sweden, things like preschools are also heavily subsidized and university completely free, which is beneficial if you have children.
benhurmarcel 3y ago
Your salary don't depend on revenue, but on how much it would cost to replace you.
jacquesm 3y ago
> It’s not like the revenue of tech companies is lower outside of the US It actually is much lower. That doesn't mean that developers aren't underpaid, but there definitely is a huge difference between a company serving the US market from inside the United States and one in Europe. In general the fraction of revenue that goes towards salaries is a fairly substantial chunk of the books of a typical company, but for a scalable proposition that is entirely virtual there is an advantage if your home market is unified in language and currency. And it also is an advantage if you have easy access to large amounts of capital. Success breeds success and creaming off some of the $ of that success is what causes developer salaries to be what they are where they are: it's based on competition for talent mostly. And that's precisely why some of these large companies were trying to collude to depress the salaries as much as they could.
School-Cotton 3y ago
The vast majority of countries are neoliberal/capitalist so that’s simply not how it works. Your pay is a function of the market price for your talents, not of how much your boss is making.
- MontyCarloHall 3y ago
  So, ironically, in that regard, the US tech labor market is far more socialist than its European counterpart.
  - School-Cotton 3y ago
    Not really. They are both neoliberal, just with different market conditions.
    - MontyCarloHall 3y ago
      Workers getting a large share of a company’s revenue, much of which is in the form of fractional ownership of the company sure sounds quasi-socialist to me! It doesn’t matter that market conditions led to this compensation scheme (as opposed to direct political intervention); what matters is the end result.
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        That's not what the terms socialism and capitalism mean. They describe the process, not end result. You can have full blown worker coops in the capitalist system, the question is if they are state mandated or not. The definition of socialism isn't any sytem with a good outcome for workers.
        qwytw 3y ago
        So are you saying that socialism can only exist if it's imposed and maintained by the state? (i.e. no democratic society can be socialist by definition?)
ddorian43 3y ago
This is the correct answer. If you really want to make it big in nearly whatever profession, you have to go america. All other countries are severely underpaid. (I don't care about Switzerland/similarities because it's just 3M people).
- hiroman 3y ago
  8.7M people to be precise :-)
oezi 3y ago
I think many Europeans can't imagine moving to the US (higher work load, less social safety, higher violence) and employers well know it and can keep salaries depressed.
- hoffs 3y ago
  More like people just don't want to leave their life behind... Those listed things are like the bottom of the reasons
  - jessekv 3y ago
    On the other hand, I know dozens of people that left their life and higher salaries in the US behind to come to the EU for those stated reasons.
    - olyjohn 3y ago
      Dozens even!
      - jessekv 3y ago
        :D
    - 908B64B197 3y ago
      From my observation, the ratio of American Engineers coming to Europe vs Europeans Engineers coming to America is at least 1:10, if not more. And most of the expats I know who did it seemed to be working for SV companies. So they didn't leave the higher salary behind.
      - jessekv 3y ago
        Yes, it's definitely more than 1:10 overall. But those reasons to leave the US (unhealthy work load, less social safety, higher violence) are at the top of many people's minds when they move to Europe.
- 3y ago
marginalia_nu 3y ago
> It’s not like the revenue of tech companies is lower outside of the US, so why isn’t more of it ending up in developers’ pockets, where it should go? What you're forgetting is that taxes differ quite a lot from country to country. That, and cost of living is a factor too. If food and housing costs half as much, then even though you're paid less, you're not really poorer for it. I think many American developers are kind of blind to how absurdly expensive California housing is.
- RestlessMind 3y ago
  From what I read on the internets, housing is also absurdly expensive in London, Lisbon, NYC, Toronto, Vancouver, Shanghai etc. Adjusting for the local level of salaries of course. So not sure what your point is?
  - throwawayadvsec 3y ago
    Absurd compared to the local living wages, not compared to SF
    - 1attice 3y ago
      Comparable to SF, but unsupported by the easy money.
      - 908B64B197 3y ago
        > by the easy money. A lot of this completely self-imposed (and very much by design) to prop-up real estate because there's no other industry to support the economy. Vancouver is a prime example: it's extremely easy (compared to the US) for foreigners to purchase assets (even with questionable sources of incomes that wouldn't pass the higher scrutiny of USCIS) and for owners to collude into restricting the supply. They are happy since their investment appears to grow in value (they can get out of the game and cash-in if another foreigner decides to park his money into these assets) and the government is happy since a lot of people's retirements are tied to their home value and it gives the impression the economy is growing.
myth2018 3y ago
> Or maybe people everywhere else need to really reflect on how underpaid they are. You must consider currency exchange rates too. In my country, at the current rates, 80k US$/year puts one above many top executives, doctors and other prestigious jobs. Not bad at all for a remote position in software development.
- 908B64B197 3y ago
  > 80k US$/year puts one above many top executives, doctors and other prestigious jobs. Not bad at all for a remote position in software development. The real question is: Who is creating the most value here? The top executive at a local company? The local doctor or the software engineer shipping products in markets around the world? It's unclear whether or not the local doctor's qualifications would even be recognized in the US, yet the remote software engineer's work is making money there and countless other high-value markets as we speak.
aiunboxed 3y ago
I think it is not as simple as that. There is cost of living and demand supply levers as well. There is a huge salary gap between usa and Canada as well.
- 908B64B197 3y ago
  > There is a huge salary gap between usa and Canada as well. Not in my experience. At least not for SV-Caliber talent. Something you have to keep in mind is that there are two parallel markets over there: SV caliber developers and the rest. The former won't have any issue getting a job in the US (takes maybe a week for a talented engineer to get one). Therefore, comp has to be priced appropriately. The later can't -and likely won't ever be able to- secure a US visa, mostly due to skills. A lot of them are immigrants to Canada themselves (there's a reason they immigrated to Canada, it's way easier and the quotas are close to 10x per capita compared to the US). Some companies leverage this and have floors of international devs they park in Canada for a fraction of their US counterpart through a subsidiary.
  - KptMarchewa 3y ago
    Most of what comes as "SV caliber" is mediocre devs. There are just (way) more of them in Bay Area than anywhere in the world and they know right buzzwords.
    - 908B64B197 3y ago
      > Most of what comes as "SV caliber" is mediocre devs. That's an interesting statement. I assume the whole tech ecosystem and market is completely irrational since it seems to price these developer so much higher than their real worth? Where would one need to go to find non-mediocre devs who know more than just "the buzzwords"?
      - pcthrowaway 3y ago
        > I assume the whole tech ecosystem and market is completely irrational since it seems to price these developer so much higher than their real worth? You somehow consider this less likely than the alternative where all less-than-leet-tier devs have decided to stay out of SV and therefore, the inflated salaries for everyone there are actually rational?
rchaud 3y ago
The OP was talking about startup roles. At that stage there is little revenue to speak of, and the salaries on offer are going to correspond to how much financing they were able to obtain. VC funding of software startups in the US easily dwarves whatever is being offered in other parts of the world.
barnabee 3y ago
It should go to showing fewer ads

paddim8 3y ago

Western Europe has something called income equality, you should try it some time. Or well, more or it. A cashier in Sweden earns a very liveable wage, quite close to the average wage, while a programmer earns maybe 75% more than that, if not twice as much. That's already a significant difference. I'm a student and get 1200€ a month (not only is university free, we also get paid to study). With this, I have my own apartment with my own kitchen and all and am still able to save 500 a month. When I start working and get an average salary (the starting salary for programmers is about the same as the average salary for the entire population), I will spend a bit more, but still probably have 1-1.5k€ left every month. That is a lot. Then after some years, that would increase by a thousand or so. Why should I expect more money than that? I don't deserve more than that. Housing is expensive here too, but not nearly as bad as in the US, so we simply don't need as high salaries. In Sweden, things like preschools are also heavily subsidized and university completely free, which is beneficial if you have children.

benhurmarcel 3y ago

Your salary don't depend on revenue, but on how much it would cost to replace you.

jacquesm 3y ago

> It’s not like the revenue of tech companies is lower outside of the US It actually is much lower. That doesn't mean that developers aren't underpaid, but there definitely is a huge difference between a company serving the US market from inside the United States and one in Europe. In general the fraction of revenue that goes towards salaries is a fairly substantial chunk of the books of a typical company, but for a scalable proposition that is entirely virtual there is an advantage if your home market is unified in language and currency. And it also is an advantage if you have easy access to large amounts of capital. Success breeds success and creaming off some of the $ of that success is what causes developer salaries to be what they are where they are: it's based on competition for talent mostly. And that's precisely why some of these large companies were trying to collude to depress the salaries as much as they could.

School-Cotton 3y ago

The vast majority of countries are neoliberal/capitalist so that’s simply not how it works. Your pay is a function of the market price for your talents, not of how much your boss is making.

MontyCarloHall 3y ago
So, ironically, in that regard, the US tech labor market is far more socialist than its European counterpart.
- School-Cotton 3y ago
  Not really. They are both neoliberal, just with different market conditions.
  - MontyCarloHall 3y ago
    Workers getting a large share of a company’s revenue, much of which is in the form of fractional ownership of the company sure sounds quasi-socialist to me! It doesn’t matter that market conditions led to this compensation scheme (as opposed to direct political intervention); what matters is the end result.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      That's not what the terms socialism and capitalism mean. They describe the process, not end result. You can have full blown worker coops in the capitalist system, the question is if they are state mandated or not. The definition of socialism isn't any sytem with a good outcome for workers.
      - qwytw 3y ago
        So are you saying that socialism can only exist if it's imposed and maintained by the state? (i.e. no democratic society can be socialist by definition?)

ddorian43 3y ago

This is the correct answer. If you really want to make it big in nearly whatever profession, you have to go america. All other countries are severely underpaid. (I don't care about Switzerland/similarities because it's just 3M people).

hiroman 3y ago
8.7M people to be precise :-)

oezi 3y ago

I think many Europeans can't imagine moving to the US (higher work load, less social safety, higher violence) and employers well know it and can keep salaries depressed.

hoffs 3y ago
More like people just don't want to leave their life behind... Those listed things are like the bottom of the reasons
- jessekv 3y ago
  On the other hand, I know dozens of people that left their life and higher salaries in the US behind to come to the EU for those stated reasons.
  - olyjohn 3y ago
    Dozens even!
    - jessekv 3y ago
      :D
  - 908B64B197 3y ago
    From my observation, the ratio of American Engineers coming to Europe vs Europeans Engineers coming to America is at least 1:10, if not more. And most of the expats I know who did it seemed to be working for SV companies. So they didn't leave the higher salary behind.
    - jessekv 3y ago
      Yes, it's definitely more than 1:10 overall. But those reasons to leave the US (unhealthy work load, less social safety, higher violence) are at the top of many people's minds when they move to Europe.
3y ago

marginalia_nu 3y ago

> It’s not like the revenue of tech companies is lower outside of the US, so why isn’t more of it ending up in developers’ pockets, where it should go? What you're forgetting is that taxes differ quite a lot from country to country. That, and cost of living is a factor too. If food and housing costs half as much, then even though you're paid less, you're not really poorer for it. I think many American developers are kind of blind to how absurdly expensive California housing is.

RestlessMind 3y ago
From what I read on the internets, housing is also absurdly expensive in London, Lisbon, NYC, Toronto, Vancouver, Shanghai etc. Adjusting for the local level of salaries of course. So not sure what your point is?
- throwawayadvsec 3y ago
  Absurd compared to the local living wages, not compared to SF
  - 1attice 3y ago
    Comparable to SF, but unsupported by the easy money.
    - 908B64B197 3y ago
      > by the easy money. A lot of this completely self-imposed (and very much by design) to prop-up real estate because there's no other industry to support the economy. Vancouver is a prime example: it's extremely easy (compared to the US) for foreigners to purchase assets (even with questionable sources of incomes that wouldn't pass the higher scrutiny of USCIS) and for owners to collude into restricting the supply. They are happy since their investment appears to grow in value (they can get out of the game and cash-in if another foreigner decides to park his money into these assets) and the government is happy since a lot of people's retirements are tied to their home value and it gives the impression the economy is growing.

myth2018 3y ago

> Or maybe people everywhere else need to really reflect on how underpaid they are. You must consider currency exchange rates too. In my country, at the current rates, 80k US$/year puts one above many top executives, doctors and other prestigious jobs. Not bad at all for a remote position in software development.

908B64B197 3y ago
> 80k US$/year puts one above many top executives, doctors and other prestigious jobs. Not bad at all for a remote position in software development. The real question is: Who is creating the most value here? The top executive at a local company? The local doctor or the software engineer shipping products in markets around the world? It's unclear whether or not the local doctor's qualifications would even be recognized in the US, yet the remote software engineer's work is making money there and countless other high-value markets as we speak.

aiunboxed 3y ago

I think it is not as simple as that. There is cost of living and demand supply levers as well. There is a huge salary gap between usa and Canada as well.

908B64B197 3y ago
> There is a huge salary gap between usa and Canada as well. Not in my experience. At least not for SV-Caliber talent. Something you have to keep in mind is that there are two parallel markets over there: SV caliber developers and the rest. The former won't have any issue getting a job in the US (takes maybe a week for a talented engineer to get one). Therefore, comp has to be priced appropriately. The later can't -and likely won't ever be able to- secure a US visa, mostly due to skills. A lot of them are immigrants to Canada themselves (there's a reason they immigrated to Canada, it's way easier and the quotas are close to 10x per capita compared to the US). Some companies leverage this and have floors of international devs they park in Canada for a fraction of their US counterpart through a subsidiary.
- KptMarchewa 3y ago
  Most of what comes as "SV caliber" is mediocre devs. There are just (way) more of them in Bay Area than anywhere in the world and they know right buzzwords.
  - 908B64B197 3y ago
    > Most of what comes as "SV caliber" is mediocre devs. That's an interesting statement. I assume the whole tech ecosystem and market is completely irrational since it seems to price these developer so much higher than their real worth? Where would one need to go to find non-mediocre devs who know more than just "the buzzwords"?
    - pcthrowaway 3y ago
      > I assume the whole tech ecosystem and market is completely irrational since it seems to price these developer so much higher than their real worth? You somehow consider this less likely than the alternative where all less-than-leet-tier devs have decided to stay out of SV and therefore, the inflated salaries for everyone there are actually rational?

rchaud 3y ago

The OP was talking about startup roles. At that stage there is little revenue to speak of, and the salaries on offer are going to correspond to how much financing they were able to obtain. VC funding of software startups in the US easily dwarves whatever is being offered in other parts of the world.

barnabee 3y ago

It should go to showing fewer ads