10 ms·

Wow, imagine. However, bitcoin isn't trying to be Visa.

AlexandrB 3y ago
No, it's trying to be much more fundamental than Visa. The new cash. Isn't the goal to replace all the prone-to-inflation fiat with Bitcoin?
adastra22 3y ago
Where did you get this impression? I've been involved with bitcoin since 2010, and replacing Visa has absolutely been the goal since the very beginning.
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  Satoshi called it digital cash. Turns out it is not a great cash alternative. Therefore it is now an asset. And we can revise history so that Satoshi meant asset all along. I didn’t say ponzi did I? No. good.
  - andhans 3y ago
    « The “electronic cash” envisioned by Satoshi is cash; it is not notes, scrip or bank credits. We have come to think of bank notes as cash, but they are actually contracts for debt. The note holder is owed something by the issuer. Cash is a commodity with certain properties that make it useful as money. Cash is largely gone from the world, and people cannot return to physical commodity money, as it cannot be moved online. Bitcoin is really our only option to guard against inflation, counterfeit, capital controls and high costs in general. Some might take issue with this vision, but that's because they imagine existing banks, financial institutions, and – most importantly – censorship. A global censorship-resistant settlement network is not like anything we've ever seen before. It is, indeed, the goal many people are working towards. That system will allow people to buy their coffee with electronic cash, but Bitcoin will never carry every coffee purchase on-chain. Those who make the Visa-analogy either don’t understand how Visa works, or don’t understand how Bitcoin works.»
    - adastra22 3y ago
      Modern day paper currency are not debt instruments. They are very much cash. Whether bitcoin is used for direct payments or payment channel settlements is irrelevant. What is important is self-custody. Cash works and has the properties it does because it is a (mostly) fungible bearer bond. Bitcoin is also a (mostly) fungible bearer bond regardless of whether you transact on chain or through lightning.
      - cykros 3y ago
        They are debt instruments. Liabilities of the central bank that issued them. Cash was the gold that you used to be able to redeem said liabilities for. These days, you can simply transfer the bank's liability to you to someone else, as a way to offset your own liability. Just because the bank has no intention of ever paying cash at this point ever since Nixon left behind specie payments doesn't change the fact that these notes are still issued as liabilities. And when I say issued by the central bank, I do mean only the paper bills that are issued. Most money that exists in bank accounts is issued by the various commercial banks that operate within the banking system (when they issue you a loan, they don't go out and find other money; they simply credit your account with the amount of the loan, and that money was simply loaned into existence as a liability of that bank).
        adastra22 3y ago
        By going off the gold standard paper currency is no longer a debt instrument. There is intrinsically no difference between deciding gold is the scarce thing that we all accept as money, or some specific hard to duplicate paper money. They both serve th same purpose.
    - jelani_t 3y ago
      I like the tech. I even paid for my coffee with the Lightning network in El Salvador and went to BTC Miami. The things I'm still not sure about are: 1. When will the value become relatively stable? This flies in the face of the store of value argument. 2. How is Monero-like fungibility going to be added? Good cash needs to be fungible.
  - adastra22 3y ago
    I don’t disagree. Bitcoin that isn’t cash has no purpose though. It’s why I left that space, despite having made some pretty fundamental contributions.
- ilyt 3y ago
  That was the advertisement material. Only people that think it could with its pathetic transaction volume were delusional
- TheDudeMan 3y ago
  I guess from Twitter threads and bitcoin podcasts. It seems to me that bitcoin is trying to be Fedwire, not Visa. Plus, trying to generally replace fiat and the monetary standard. To be clear, when I say "bitcoin", I mean the L1.
0xAFFFF 3y ago
That's funny because bitcoiners can't shut the fuck up about Visa whenever the abysmal throughput of the bitcoin network or its humongous power consumption is brought up.
- nwienert 3y ago
  AI could barely put together a sentence a decade ago but I didn’t tell anyone to shut the fuck up about it, it was pretty cool still even if it barely worked. Almost like technology progresses.
  - usrbinbash 3y ago
    AI had tangible use cases even when it wasn't developed to the point where it could be applied to those. The problems AI is used to solve, existed before the technology to solve them. Bitcoin, and all the other "crypto"-tokens, have been looking for a problem to solve for 14 years.
    - medo-bear 3y ago
      A problem to solve? It is not uncommon for companies to loose over 2% of revenue in banking fees and other enforced banking inefficiencies for transactions that could be handled much more cheaply and efficently with crypto solutions
      - simiones 3y ago
        Yes, because both BTC and ETH are well known for how cheap transactions are.
        nwienert 3y ago
        Typically less than half a percent, often lower.
        simiones 3y ago

No, it's trying to be much more fundamental than Visa. The new cash. Isn't the goal to replace all the prone-to-inflation fiat with Bitcoin?

adastra22 3y ago

Where did you get this impression? I've been involved with bitcoin since 2010, and replacing Visa has absolutely been the goal since the very beginning.

quickthrower2 3y ago
Satoshi called it digital cash. Turns out it is not a great cash alternative. Therefore it is now an asset. And we can revise history so that Satoshi meant asset all along. I didn’t say ponzi did I? No. good.
- andhans 3y ago
  « The “electronic cash” envisioned by Satoshi is cash; it is not notes, scrip or bank credits. We have come to think of bank notes as cash, but they are actually contracts for debt. The note holder is owed something by the issuer. Cash is a commodity with certain properties that make it useful as money. Cash is largely gone from the world, and people cannot return to physical commodity money, as it cannot be moved online. Bitcoin is really our only option to guard against inflation, counterfeit, capital controls and high costs in general. Some might take issue with this vision, but that's because they imagine existing banks, financial institutions, and – most importantly – censorship. A global censorship-resistant settlement network is not like anything we've ever seen before. It is, indeed, the goal many people are working towards. That system will allow people to buy their coffee with electronic cash, but Bitcoin will never carry every coffee purchase on-chain. Those who make the Visa-analogy either don’t understand how Visa works, or don’t understand how Bitcoin works.»
  - adastra22 3y ago
    Modern day paper currency are not debt instruments. They are very much cash. Whether bitcoin is used for direct payments or payment channel settlements is irrelevant. What is important is self-custody. Cash works and has the properties it does because it is a (mostly) fungible bearer bond. Bitcoin is also a (mostly) fungible bearer bond regardless of whether you transact on chain or through lightning.
    - cykros 3y ago
      They are debt instruments. Liabilities of the central bank that issued them. Cash was the gold that you used to be able to redeem said liabilities for. These days, you can simply transfer the bank's liability to you to someone else, as a way to offset your own liability. Just because the bank has no intention of ever paying cash at this point ever since Nixon left behind specie payments doesn't change the fact that these notes are still issued as liabilities. And when I say issued by the central bank, I do mean only the paper bills that are issued. Most money that exists in bank accounts is issued by the various commercial banks that operate within the banking system (when they issue you a loan, they don't go out and find other money; they simply credit your account with the amount of the loan, and that money was simply loaned into existence as a liability of that bank).
      - adastra22 3y ago
        By going off the gold standard paper currency is no longer a debt instrument. There is intrinsically no difference between deciding gold is the scarce thing that we all accept as money, or some specific hard to duplicate paper money. They both serve th same purpose.
  - jelani_t 3y ago
    I like the tech. I even paid for my coffee with the Lightning network in El Salvador and went to BTC Miami. The things I'm still not sure about are: 1. When will the value become relatively stable? This flies in the face of the store of value argument. 2. How is Monero-like fungibility going to be added? Good cash needs to be fungible.
- adastra22 3y ago
  I don’t disagree. Bitcoin that isn’t cash has no purpose though. It’s why I left that space, despite having made some pretty fundamental contributions.
ilyt 3y ago
That was the advertisement material. Only people that think it could with its pathetic transaction volume were delusional
TheDudeMan 3y ago
I guess from Twitter threads and bitcoin podcasts. It seems to me that bitcoin is trying to be Fedwire, not Visa. Plus, trying to generally replace fiat and the monetary standard. To be clear, when I say "bitcoin", I mean the L1.

0xAFFFF 3y ago

That's funny because bitcoiners can't shut the fuck up about Visa whenever the abysmal throughput of the bitcoin network or its humongous power consumption is brought up.

nwienert 3y ago
AI could barely put together a sentence a decade ago but I didn’t tell anyone to shut the fuck up about it, it was pretty cool still even if it barely worked. Almost like technology progresses.
- usrbinbash 3y ago
  AI had tangible use cases even when it wasn't developed to the point where it could be applied to those. The problems AI is used to solve, existed before the technology to solve them. Bitcoin, and all the other "crypto"-tokens, have been looking for a problem to solve for 14 years.
  - medo-bear 3y ago
    A problem to solve? It is not uncommon for companies to loose over 2% of revenue in banking fees and other enforced banking inefficiencies for transactions that could be handled much more cheaply and efficently with crypto solutions
    - simiones 3y ago
      Yes, because both BTC and ETH are well known for how cheap transactions are.
      - nwienert 3y ago
        Typically less than half a percent, often lower.
        simiones 3y ago