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How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul
- BxGyw2 3y agoGood read and solid point but who the fuck is injecting from crack cocaine? All that baking soda can't be good for you
- WJW 3y agoFirst reported in 1996: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2136406/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2136406/ People don't do it because it's healthy, obviously.
- quickthrower2 3y agoHot take that makes sense. Just watch out for your posture
- smnrg 3y agoGreat point: we always think about physical posture, but need to watch our mental posture even more.
- eesmith 3y ago> AA meetings don’t give out badges to members who drink for less than 2 hours per day. I don't agree with that analogy. To use a different analogy, people don't join Weight Watchers because they want to quit eating. Also, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous#Criticism : ] Stanton Peele argued that some AA groups apply the disease model to all problem drinkers, whether or not they are "full-blown" alcoholics.[132] Along with Nancy Shute, Peele has advocated that besides AA, other options should be readily available to those problem drinkers who can manage their drinking with the right treatment.
- tinsmith 3y agoWhile what you quoted is not incorrect, and worth pointing out, the analogy stands. In AA, you only get the chip if you abstain from drinking. The chip (a little coin) is an all-or-nothing deal. In AA, we do get people attending who just want to control their drinking. They're usually sent by the courts (in the US, at least) due to some misdemeanor they commited while drunk, as though those of us battling ourselves are supposed to teach some 20-something how to be responsible adult because their parents failed them. Sometimes one of those court-sent people finds out they have a real problem, and end up sticking around. However, for the most part, the rest are there for a few weeks because they have to be, we sign their slips, and never see them again. We don't give out chips for that.
- eesmith 3y agoMy disagreement is about the appropriateness of the AA analogy to the author's point. The author asserts "If that’s the case, the only healthy screen time is no screen time. Zero." That is almost impossible these days. We increasingly require smart phones such that NOT having/using one is difficult, even for those who don't want one. Important information and services are moving to the internet, making a non-internet life more difficult. Yet the author wants use to consider that as a viable solution! AA promotes abstinence, and supports people who want to maintain abstinence. As I often go for months without drinking alcohol, I know that there is still a lot one can do without drinking. What would you do if your company required you to drink alcohol to work, your kid's school required you to drink alcohol to check on your kid's status, a restaurant required you to do a shot to get a menu, and you couldn't rent a bike without first drinking even more alcohol? And that's why I don't like the author's use of an essentially impossible solution as the comparison. While Weight Watcher's and other diet plans don't say "abstain from all food", which of course is impossible. WW specifically uses a points-based system so that some foods, like "leafy greens, carrots, tomatoes, green beans, asparagus, onions, broccoli and radishes" have zero points, and can be consumed without limit. (Compare that to a calorie-based diet.) By the WW analogy, some screen time, like logging into your bank to check on the accounts, would have zero points while others, like writing comments on HN :), would have points, setting a limit to one's daily use. Which seems to map well to what the author is proposing ("parameters to evaluate quality, not quantity, of the time spent staring at your screens"). I also don't like "Go on, spend 4 hours on an app. Just make sure you decided to—and that you feel those 4 hours are life well spent." because if the author really believes the alcoholism analogy is true, then it's saying the author either doesn't believe any of the readers actually have a screen time problem, or believes it's okay for an alcoholic to spend 4 hours drinking at the bar with friends, so long if it feels like a life well spent. And something similar for the crack cocaine user. P.S. In researching the Weight Watcher's/food analogy I found out that the existence of "food addition" is under debate, where the 'language of addiction' is used to explain one's feelings and provide a means of communicating distress and helplessness, rather than being an addition in the same way that drugs are addictive. See https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-018-0203-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-018-0203-9 . With my daily allotment of Internet Watchers points nearly gone, I'll not research the scholarly views of "internet addition".
- redkoala 3y agoThe same analogy applies for any screen usage - is the time I’m spending on my TV, computer or tablet disrespecting my time? Dark patterns for attention exist on all screens, they are just more prevalent on phones that are accessible to you all the time.
- nobrains 3y agoBut its more than that. I might visit Reddit and Hacker News, not because the app summoned me via notifications, but because my brain summoned the app, after just a 15 minute hiatus. The issue is that browser and certain apps are available to me on the phone instantly. And there are no good controls to help me me MINDFUL. What I want from the phone (I use an iPhone): - Upon every unlock, or upon every app open, I should receive a popup asking me why I want to use the app/phone. - I can enter whatever I want in that popup, but that writing exercise of a few words will help me realize if I am making a mistake of using the crack-gadget too often. - I should be able to white-list apps. - I should be able to see my logs all in one place for later review and reflection.
- aqeelsmith 3y agoI think you should try out one sec https://apps.apple.com/nl/app/one-sec-delay-apps-focus/id1532875441?l=en https://apps.apple.com/nl/app/one-sec-delay-apps-focus/id153... It helped me a lot with my addiction to Instagram and the one second breathing helps put things into perspective. I end up (90%) of the time not opening up the app after my one sec.
- prox 3y agoAs the old saying goes, there is an app for that. Here you go : https://one-sec.app/ https://one-sec.app/
- jtr1 3y agoThis looks very cool, although I went to check out their browser extensions and the permissions(!) > This app can read and change your data on any website
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoWhen I'm home my cellphone becomes a "home phone" and is put on the charger in the bedroom where I don't touch it. My average screen on time is single digit minutes for the day. I screw around here and on other sites more but I can tackle that next.
- ygouzerh 3y agoThat's so true. I love Youtube for its music, documentaries and software engineering content. But I hate the Shorts features, if I click on only one video, it sucks all my night. I built a small app for blocking the Shorts features, in this way I can enjoy the advantages without having the bad sides.
- ape4 3y agoI've heard if you select "Not interested" for all the shorts in your feed one time - that will stop them.
- woudsma 3y agoOnly for 30 days for me. I want to disable shorts from my recommendations altogether.
- nicbou 3y agoTry Unhook. You can hide all but the video player if you want. On mobile just use the website.
- archixe 3y agoThere is an add-on called unhook that allows you to disable almost everything on youtube. I turned off shorts, recommendations, the home page even the comments. Now all I see is my subsriptions page. It really stopped me from wasting hours hopping videos. It also workes on firefox mobile, I stopped using the default youtube app.
- gte525u 3y agoI started using Chrome plugin RYS that does something similar - where youtube functions but recommendations are removed. It's helped consumption dramatically. I'm kinda wondering if I need to do the same for reddit and hacker news where links/articles would work but the mainpage / subreddit pages wouldn't.
- dabluecaboose 3y ago
- whiplash451 3y agoYou can only replace an addiction with another (healthier) one. For instance: intense outdoor activity, time spent working in a farm, etc. The tech we’ve built is insanely addictive.
- jjgreen 3y agoYou could take up smoking. Problem is that you can smoke and zombie-phone at the same time ...
- contravariant 3y agoJust start drinking as well, you'll have to quit one habit or take up juggling.
- TeMPOraL 3y agoHaha, no. I can smoke and drink and tap on the phone at the same time. Hold my beer while I show you.
- dingleberry 3y agoskip the drink?
- TeMPOraL 3y agoIsn't the strength of addiction inversely correlated with how healthy it is? Or put another way, how the fuck does one begin to like intense outdoor activity at all, much less to the point of it replacing a social media problem (including HN)? There's only one somewhat reliable "trick" I know that makes people do these kinds of switches: falling in love, or at least getting a crush on, someone who's already doing the healthier thing. Obviously, this method is only available for a small segment of the population and mostly for a few years.
- Der_Einzige 3y ago
- davidkuennen 3y agoI would've agreed some time ago. Today I think it's okay to not optimize everything for efficiency and it's also okay to waste some time on mindless things.
- rubidium 3y agoMindless things like sitting on the porch, idly staring at the wall, or people watching sure. This is the fallow time that enables future growth. Idly dopamine dripping on internet is like spraying salt on your fields. Nothings going to grow.
- qup 3y agoYes, but phones are not those things that are okay, unless they're very well-manicured. It's not mindless, it's far more insidious than that. There are people vying for your attention. They are not doing it mindlessly, and they are not doing it for your benefit. Almost every mindless activity mankind has ever known hasn't required a phone-sized computer with a touch screen, but somehow that's nearly the only one people are doing anymore. I think that speaks to the effectiveness of the algorithms. But to your point: Amen. Spend some time getting bored. It fixed a lot for me in the motivation department.
- westernpopular 3y agoThere's a difference between intentional leisure and addiction.
- BlueTemplar 3y agoWhile in this case the particular 3 questions do not help, it's nice that these links regularly pop up on HN, at which point I notice that I have been abusing it again...
- teekert 3y agoIs miss this insight from the iOS screentime feature: The thing often reports: More time spend than last week, average 2.5 hours a day. Yeah that's fine, but if half is Apple Maps because I had to drive somewhere far away, this result is meaningless. I indeed also just want to know how much time I spend in soul sucking apps. Or rather, in soul sucking websites because I feel that using websites for ie reddit are what always keeps me there for a short time before annoyance allows me to quit (thank you reddit).
- haswell 3y agoThe screen time reports show a breakdown by app (and website if you use safari) to help clarify which apps are taking your time. The daily average is just a benchmark to see high level trends. Drilling down is far more interesting. The “first used after pickup” report can be quite interesting as well.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 3y agoA few weeks ago I made an effort to connect more with local reality and less with the internet and its mountain of suck. To that end I removed all social media apps from my phone (I only had one), and disabled the news feed, search, and browser. I still have all the features I find actually useful, like weather, maps, alarms, calendar, etc. The first few times you mindlessly look at your phone after doing something like that are a real eye opener. You pull it out, unlock it, and stare at a screen full of nothing and ask yourself why you took it out in the first place. My mood has improved significantly, and I find I suddenly have time for all those things I've wanted to get done but "haven't had the time for". Without a mindless dopamine trickle to default to I am forced to engage in actually meaningful and satisfying activity most of the time to alleviate boredom. Do not kid yourself that the behaviors these things induce aren't intended. Marketers don't care about your quality of life, or the health of society itself, they just want your money and they will manipulate you into doom scrolling a bunch of barely interesting bullshit in order to shove ads down your throat without a second thought.
- aembleton 3y ago> A few weeks ago I made an effort to connect more with local reality and less with the internet and its mountain of suck. To that end I removed all social media apps from my phone.. Don't you find that a lot of groups, such as your local running club organise over Facebook? Its those groups and even just organising a BBQ with friends that keep me on Facebook.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 3y agoThey probably do, but I haven't used Facebook at all aside from a brief period in the 2010s. If they organize on Facebook, and I don't have any other way of finding out about them or otherwise contacting them, I just don't bother. I am willing to accept some inconvenience in order to be aligned with my goals, which I am learning puts me very much at odds with the average person.
- laratied 3y ago
- eucryphia 3y agoI don’t stare at my ‘phone’ while my soul expires, I read the ‘newspaper’, group message my family multiple times a day, research something deeper interesting on Wikipedia or a forum, interesting poasts on HN. Your mileage depends on your self discipline.
- thenerdhead 3y agoI believe heavily in moderation. It’s a virtue after all and although many pleasures in life are extremely difficult to balance by nature, I think it is possible if you start to understand yourself more to see why you escape to a device. Also I wrote a book on this topic and love sending copies to HN readers who struggle with this problem. Send me an email and I’ll send you a copy. https://www.amazon.com/Enough-Seeking-less-world-more/dp/B0BF28PBG2 https://www.amazon.com/Enough-Seeking-less-world-more/dp/B0B...
- sudhirkhanger 3y agoI am able to focus on work but even when I am super busy with work I will spend a lot of time on mobile. So it doesn't interfere with work but does interfere with health and overall well-being. I have removed all social media apps from my device including Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn. I don't use media streaming apps on mobile like YouTube. I do spend a lot of time reading on mobile that is helpful but it does train my focus to constantly context switch and reduces my ability to focus for non-appealing tasks for a long period like reading books. Only thing that has helps is putting the device away but banking apps, TOTP, etc. makes it difficult. But I have unsuccessfully tried DND, gray screen, etc. There is research that reducing mobile usage by an hour a day improves wellbeing. But I don't know how to tackle this situation in a sustainable manner.
- TheMightyLlama 3y agoAre there any apps or setting which reduce the saturation of colours? I notice that in many publicly available screens, such as in gyms, the saturation is extremely high drawing my attention to it. I find that this is also the case on my iPhone and Mac. Certainly I can go monotone. But not desaturate partially.
- sudhirkhanger 3y agohttps://www.theverge.com/23637672/grayscale-iphone-android-pixel-samsung-galaxy-how-to https://www.theverge.com/23637672/grayscale-iphone-android-p...
- nicbou 3y agoSelfControl for Mac is ridiculously effective. I just leave my mobile phone in another room. TOTP can work with a password manager. I can walk to another room to log into my bank account as needed.
- sudhirkhanger 3y agoSMS is another one that is hooked on to the mobile. To some extent Messages app helps on Android regarding this.
- nologic01 3y agoIts not the phone. Its the screen. It could have been in any form factor - it was in another, less usable, form factor. The portability just clinched it for billions and made the issue of the screen more pressing than ever. The screen is the window to the matrix, our collective digital space. That matrix is something incredibly powerful. We have not tamed it. We don't even have a theory of taming it. A psychological, political, economic framework that does not drift into toxic, rapacious abominations. We need to learn to live this dual existence as individuals. We need to learn to build sane digital communities. Admitting we have a really serious problem is the first step.
- smnrg 3y agoI think there's truth to that. A screen's mere presence can distort focus and commands attention.
- sledgehammers 3y agoYou have spoken my exact thoughts aloud, thanks. Let's start working on the theory!
- twic 3y agoI tend think the transition to living online is basically a repeat of the transition to living in cities. That is, from villages to cities is the same as cities to online. There's more of everything - people, stuff, contact, density, access, coincidences. I wonder if we can learn anything from the previous transition.
- dopidopHN 3y agoghetto and fenced community are not that great. If you deal with unrest be sure to build large boulevard to replace the narrow streets. Those are more efficient to bring troops quickly and harder to barricade.
- nologic01 3y agoYes, i really dig this analogy. It also shows that the transition is potentially a game changer of extraordinary significance given the immensity of that global digital city. Even lingustic barriers will soon be a thing of the past. Its interesting to note that cities were despised from their very beginnings and even today many people cant tolerate them. But many many social inventions may provide interesting and useful analogies: zoning rules, police, firefighters, quiet areas and parks, thoroughfares. Also, the privacy one enjoys in the countryside is reduced but not eliminated - despite the density people still have private spaces.
- jrm4 3y agoA simple .. "hack?" that has served me well. No social media on the phone, computer only; in fact, turn off all notifications not from live human beings trying to contact me personally. It seems as if the big social media sites are beginning to appreciate this as well? Seems like the formerly "phone only" sites are getting web interfaces...
- baremetal 3y agoI don't use my phone for anything but calls and texts, and occasionally looking something up. I meditate or engage with people standing while in lines. If I'm gonna spend time on a computer I do it on a laptop at home. All my HN browsing is on a laptop. I keep the phone in a separate room. I don't give myself the slack to spend time looking at my phone. Its a waste of time anyway and I end up missing out on life.
- passwordoops 3y agoApropos of this topic, I'm in the middle of reading Dopamine Nation, recommended reading for everyone. Just about anything that gives us pleasure has the potential to be addictive, and unfortunately our entire system is based on getting us to indulge in what makes us feel "good", ergo addictive behaviors are highly encouraged. The tech industry is no exception as UX is generally predicated on making us feel "delighted" i.e. addicted. https://www.annalembke.com/dopamine-nation https://www.annalembke.com/dopamine-nation
- frankish 3y agoLooking at you flow state (<_<) I wonder if that also relates to my ADHD hyperfocus.
- eimrine 3y ago> It’s about whether your phone is a needy, attention-sucking vampire. What else outcomes might be awaited if "the phone" is running non-free software? I am exactly that kind of person whose healthy screen time of snoop phones is zero because of some attention obstructions - but I have no fatigue issues after heavy sessions behind a screen which is powered by Debian without opening any websites requiring JS.
- kang 3y agoZero screen time is not ideal. Everything over the internet is not drugs by the analogy
- divan 3y agoThe problem is that internet is both a library and a public place. You need library for information and for work, and internet delivers here better than anything else - almost any information is available instantly. But unlike library with silence and no distractions you're at the same time in the middle of the giant public square, where all the people from your social circle also available instantly. It's like studying in the middle of the giant party. Of course you can plug in noise cancellation headphones and find dark corner, but you brain knows that all people you care about are right here. If you want to share some thoughts or check on someone in the library you have no choice – you can't talk to them, or have to go outside. But internet removes this constraint. I really believe this social aspect of reachability of people (friends, haters or some people on internet you follow) is crucial. It's not about apps or a screen time, it's about social connection (even ephemeral) that gives this gratification and makes our brains summoning the apps.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago> I really believe this social aspect of reachability of people (friends, haters or some people on internet you follow) is crucial. It's not about apps or a screen time, it's about social connection (even ephemeral) that gives this gratification and makes our brains summoning the apps. This. I've concluded the same, observing my own interaction patterns. I use very little social media (would've ditched Facebook if not for Messenger, and Instagram if not for my wife liking to post "stories"). I do, however, have a huge HN problem. But it's not a consumption problem. I feel a compulsion to comment (like here, now). If I don't do it - e.g. because I can't find anything I feel like responding to - I quickly get tired and it's easy to close all those HN tabs. I've tried breaks from HN. Each time, I somehow ended up on Reddit. Again, not consuming, but engaging in discussions on various subreddits that tend to be more about conversation than links. The few times I tried to stop myself from that, I quickly ended up on Mastodon, posting "tweet storms" and creating more interesting conversations. So at least in my case, it's definitely about connection. Pure consumption has its draw, but I can kick that somewhat easily. But those kinds of conversation - which, for reasons I'm not sure of, have no equivalent in meat space - have me in an iron grip.
- 3y ago
- jcadam 3y agoWhen you stare into your phone, your phone stares back at you.
- josefresco 3y ago"When it helps you to check in on your partner, to get directions, or to edit photos professionally, time doesn’t matter as much—does it?" I run into this conundrum every time I consider a dumbphone.
- nehal3m 3y agoThose things can be solved in their own way though. A dumb phone can let you check in on your partner, you can use your old smartphone as a dedicated GPS and if you're taking photos with a dedicated camera (which you'll have to if you don't have a smartphone) editing them on mobile is simply not an option. You're better off editing on a laptop or tablet.
- swayvil 3y agoIn dreamland talking to this lady about whatever. She says, "ask your rat". Points at my phone. I reply, "Rat?". "Yes. It's the size and weight of a rat. It squeaks like a rat" "And it spies on me". "Yes".
- swayvil 3y agoIt's an interesting connection, your attention as your soul. Consider the implications of "temptation". Consider "bound soul", "free soul", "damned soul". Consider a soul, and a body, in a subway car, diddling with its phone, on the way to work. It really sheds light on the subject.
- photochemsyn 3y agoHere's an idea: an app that forces you to solve a fairly complex mathematical puzzle every time you try to open any social media app. This is lifted from Larry Niven's Ringworld sci-fi novels (specifically, a wirehead addict uses this approach to limit their consumption). Mobile devices don't seem to make this very easy to do, though, you need a app wrapper of some kind which seems fairly case-specific.
- nicbou 3y agoSet a hard password, save it somewhere, log out and let the browser forget it. On desktop just use SelfControl.
- adamwong246 3y agoDelete the bad apps and move on with your life.
- bckr 3y agoFor many, the bad app is the browser.
- adamwong246 3y agoIDK if you can't help yourself, uninstall the browser. Or get a dumb phone. You'll have to exercise some self-control one way or the other.
- AlbertCory 3y agoI knew a guy at Google (name withheld, for obvious reasons), who would put his phone on the floor face up while in the gym doing pushups. This way, if an email came in, he would know instantly. Three little words: It can wait.
- mark_l_watson 3y agoI like the parallels with AA. Also, re: not how much time you spend on a phone, rather how you use it: Good uses: listening to good literature on audio books, reading ebooks, reading long form articles on Substack, listening to a good lecture on YouTube. Bad uses: having any notifications turned on except for specific family members, consuming addictive content of Tic Toc, FB, etc. EDIT: and use freedom.to tools to limit fun and sometimes useful things like HN and Twitter.
- izackp 3y ago> But consider that anything not honoring your time and attention is disrespecting you. A great statement. I apply this to many things especially video games.
- Aerbil313 3y agoGreat article. I myself am completely unable to limit my consumption of novel information input by “willpower” or whatever. I’m 18 yo, and the internet, programming, HN, reddit and all are too damn interesting, unnaturally, too much. My brain is completely wired to seek novel information input and surge dopamine. I was an addict of some other thing before too, and I know this is %100 dopamine addiction. The only solution that I found to work, that lets my brain “breathe” and brain fog to clear is restricting access. I set the password of my iPhone to a 20-digit number which I surely won’t be able to memorize while setting it up. I put all my contacts to my Emergency Contacts so that I can call them without unlocking my phone. I’m logged in to WhatsApp Web on my iPad, I use it from there. My iPad has Screen Time on, its settings are controlled from my iPhone. All domains except some necessary government etc. domains are blocked, and new app installing is disabled on the iPad. After setting up Screen Time, I asked my brother to enter a random password for the Screen Time password and forget it. I created an iOS Shortcut on my iPhone which dictates my password[2] only if I’m X meters away from banned locations (home & school), because every once in a while I need to unlock my phone to do something. I go on a walk/run and unlock my phone in that case. The shortcut is a widget, it works while my phone is locked. I also time-locked[1] this password to 24 hours (you can only open it after a decryption process which takes 24 hours) and saved it to my DO server in its locked form, because Shortcuts very rarely doesn’t work. I use my server to decrypt if needed. My computer’s (NixOS) password is time-locked too, as I’m currently still in school and shouldn’t be using it (Little time left to university exam). After the exam, I plan to lock it down to 6 hours a day and writing a browser extension which uses an LLM to close the current tab if I’m not working on my project X and instead say, doomscrolling HN. 1: I use this program I wrote, in case anyone is interested: https://github.com/aerbil313/timelock https://github.com/aerbil313/timelock 2: It doesn’t dictate the password digits for security reasons. It plays a different notification tone for each digit while I’m entering the password. I memorized which sound is which.
- boring_twenties 3y agoEasy. Power down the phone first.
- dingleberry 3y agoairplane mode helps
- thriller 3y agoBack in the dial-up days, my family's internet account was shaped by time. We had thirty hours of internet usage per month. We had an notebook where you had to log what hours you intended to use it. I always thought it an effective way that I have now adapted. I keep a notebook full of things I want to read or learn about. Especially if you have a partner to keep you accountable. It also helps my children learn to use technology instead of it using them. Not in the book? I don't look at it.
- predictabl3 3y ago[flagged]