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> And suicide is rampant. No. It fucking isn't. The Foxconn suicide rate is well sourced on Wikipedia [1]. Here's the interesting bit: "In 2010, Foxconn's w

> And suicide is rampant. No. It fucking isn't. The Foxconn suicide rate is well sourced on Wikipedia [1]. Here's the interesting bit: "In 2010, Foxconn's worst year for suicides with a total of 14 deaths, their total employee count was 930,000 people. The suicide rate for Foxconn this year was 1.5 per 100,000 making it well below the national average (around 7% the national average). Even if calculated as if all the employee deaths were from the Shenzhen factory complex alone (to simulate a localised area suicide rate), which in 2010 had a workforce of 450,000, the rate is still well below the national average at 3.11 per 100,000 (around 14% the national average)." Also worth pointing out, that this is significantly lower than the US suicide rate, as documented by the national institute for mental health [2]. Please stop propagating this myth. Also, this took me LESS THAN THIRTY SECONDS OF RESEARCH. Please learn to think for yourself. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides [2] http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-us-statistics-and-prevention/index.shtml http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-u...

ramblerman 15y ago
The article, mid january, about the 100 or so workers 'threatening' to jump, the 'suicide nets', and a recent bill maher episode obviously swayed my perception for the worse. You are correct, the high suicide rate seems to be a myth.
- rmah 15y ago
  I think those workers were building Xbox for Microsoft
tatsuke95 15y ago
Do you notice something about the Wiki sources? It lists people who climbed to the top of the building and jumped off it in a public manner. This isn't every suicide related to work at Foxconn. These are the undeniable suicides. If you think this is normal, I'd like you to show me the list of large, public companies in America that had employees climb to the top of the building in 2010-2011 and jump to their death. It doesn't happen. Could you leave it open to the fact that maybe, just maybe, there are interests at play here that may want to keep a story like this under wraps? Mainly the Chinese government who craves the foreign investment and Apple, the biggest company in America that's banking billions in cash? I bet if this was Goldman Sachs, we'd be all over over it. >Please learn to think for yourself. Exactly. Knowing a bit of history, what is easier to believe: 1. That a massively profitable American company ignores the work environment of a factory in a second world country, but insists on low cost production, which results in worker abuse. Or, 2. Everything is great at Foxconn and this is all a big conspiracy to bring down Apple.
- JayWilmont 15y ago
  Really? The only two options are that Apple doesn't care or that it is a conspiracy? How about: 3. That most people will look at the situation with the same lenses they look at Apple with. Those that hate Apple will see their internal monitoring cynically as a PR move with little substance, and those that love Apple will be glad to know that it is doing more than the competition and will believe Tim Cook when he says he takes the problems seriously. Even in the future if conditions improve, Apple lovers will credit Apple, and Apple haters will credit the increased demand for labor or the Chinese government for improving worker conditions. The reality, like so much of the real world, is a complex grey area that is difficult to analyse just from what you read on the internet.
  - tatsuke95 15y ago
    So, you mock the fact that I have two options, then throw out the generalization that people who believe Apple is at fault are "Apple haters"? That's the only option? Seems reasonable. But in fact, there are only two options: either there is a labour issue, or there isn't. I understand how this works. I know that working at Foxconn is better than working in the rice fields, and that this is how economic progress happens. History is filled with it. But that's also my point: history is filled with problems like this. So, I'm going to challenge the assertion (most often made by westerners) that what has happened at Foxconn is perfectly normal. To make a statement like the OP, that this propaganda needs to stop, is ludicrous. These problems will solve themselves, and conditions will improve, but only if we maintain an open dialogue about the issues, rather then telling everyone that anything negative is propaganda.
- snprbob86 15y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werther_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werther_effect I've seen it myself. When I was in high school, one girl committed suicide and days later two others attempted suicide in the exact way she did. This is a normal behavior of a depressed human mind. I'm not saying that everything is great at Foxconn. I'm saying that their employees are often happy to be employed at all, and sending money back to their families. I have friends who work on the Xbox hardware teams and have been to those factories. It's my understanding that the working conditions are clean and safe, but intense and fast-paced. Sure, it's a shitty life overall, but Foxconn is easily on the nicer end of the Chinese factory spectrum. Relative perception really matters to influence suicides. As a result, I'd expect the suicide rate to be lower than among peers. If we beat up on Foxconn instead of on the Chinese government, then all we're teaching these businesses is "You can still treat your employees like shit, just avoid showing up in US newspapers".

ramblerman 15y ago

The article, mid january, about the 100 or so workers 'threatening' to jump, the 'suicide nets', and a recent bill maher episode obviously swayed my perception for the worse. You are correct, the high suicide rate seems to be a myth.

rmah 15y ago
I think those workers were building Xbox for Microsoft

tatsuke95 15y ago

Do you notice something about the Wiki sources? It lists people who climbed to the top of the building and jumped off it in a public manner. This isn't every suicide related to work at Foxconn. These are the undeniable suicides. If you think this is normal, I'd like you to show me the list of large, public companies in America that had employees climb to the top of the building in 2010-2011 and jump to their death. It doesn't happen. Could you leave it open to the fact that maybe, just maybe, there are interests at play here that may want to keep a story like this under wraps? Mainly the Chinese government who craves the foreign investment and Apple, the biggest company in America that's banking billions in cash? I bet if this was Goldman Sachs, we'd be all over over it. >Please learn to think for yourself. Exactly. Knowing a bit of history, what is easier to believe: 1. That a massively profitable American company ignores the work environment of a factory in a second world country, but insists on low cost production, which results in worker abuse. Or, 2. Everything is great at Foxconn and this is all a big conspiracy to bring down Apple.

JayWilmont 15y ago
Really? The only two options are that Apple doesn't care or that it is a conspiracy? How about: 3. That most people will look at the situation with the same lenses they look at Apple with. Those that hate Apple will see their internal monitoring cynically as a PR move with little substance, and those that love Apple will be glad to know that it is doing more than the competition and will believe Tim Cook when he says he takes the problems seriously. Even in the future if conditions improve, Apple lovers will credit Apple, and Apple haters will credit the increased demand for labor or the Chinese government for improving worker conditions. The reality, like so much of the real world, is a complex grey area that is difficult to analyse just from what you read on the internet.
- tatsuke95 15y ago
  So, you mock the fact that I have two options, then throw out the generalization that people who believe Apple is at fault are "Apple haters"? That's the only option? Seems reasonable. But in fact, there are only two options: either there is a labour issue, or there isn't. I understand how this works. I know that working at Foxconn is better than working in the rice fields, and that this is how economic progress happens. History is filled with it. But that's also my point: history is filled with problems like this. So, I'm going to challenge the assertion (most often made by westerners) that what has happened at Foxconn is perfectly normal. To make a statement like the OP, that this propaganda needs to stop, is ludicrous. These problems will solve themselves, and conditions will improve, but only if we maintain an open dialogue about the issues, rather then telling everyone that anything negative is propaganda.
snprbob86 15y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werther_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werther_effect I've seen it myself. When I was in high school, one girl committed suicide and days later two others attempted suicide in the exact way she did. This is a normal behavior of a depressed human mind. I'm not saying that everything is great at Foxconn. I'm saying that their employees are often happy to be employed at all, and sending money back to their families. I have friends who work on the Xbox hardware teams and have been to those factories. It's my understanding that the working conditions are clean and safe, but intense and fast-paced. Sure, it's a shitty life overall, but Foxconn is easily on the nicer end of the Chinese factory spectrum. Relative perception really matters to influence suicides. As a result, I'd expect the suicide rate to be lower than among peers. If we beat up on Foxconn instead of on the Chinese government, then all we're teaching these businesses is "You can still treat your employees like shit, just avoid showing up in US newspapers".