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> what are the main benefits of going fully cashless One piece of advice I got a long time ago, from a family member in politics: Don't put your groceries on a

> what are the main benefits of going fully cashless One piece of advice I got a long time ago, from a family member in politics: Don't put your groceries on a credit card. Especially if you buy junk food or alcohol. Obviously the same goes for bars, tobacco, strip clubs, gun purchases[0], and lots of other perfectly legal things that you might not want being counted up if you ever run for office. At the systemic level, the main benefits of going cashless are: - Being able to track everyone's purchases (for taxation, law enforcement, and in some countries the blackmail of political opposition or assigning "social credit" ratings) - Have realtime, near-total visibility into the movement of money, for economic management and personal profit - Being able to cut off individuals or members of a political movement from the ability to purchase basic necessities, if they fall afoul of the party in power[1] [0] https://www.wlox.com/2022/09/20/gop-ags-call-credit-card-companies-drop-code-track-gun-sales/ https://www.wlox.com/2022/09/20/gop-ags-call-credit-card-com... [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/trudeau-canada-freeze-bank-accounts-freedom-convoy-truckers-2022-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/trudeau-canada-freeze-bank-a... [edit]: I should have also mentioned freedom of movement and association. You cannot buy a plane ticket or a hotel room anymore for cash - even if your bank's ATM allowed you to access enough of your cash in a single day to do so. Cards enable the granular tracking of everyone's movement, whether or not that person chooses to carry a cellphone.

cipheredStones 3y ago
> Don't put your groceries on a credit card. ...huh? "Don't use store membership cards that track your specific purchases" is one thing, but in what world does your credit card processor get info about the individual goods on your receipt?
- smilespray 3y ago
  Pretty sure the data about individual goods is up for sale. Didn't Google start buying this kind of data to match up online purchase intent with real-world purchases?
- ricksebak 3y ago
  If you apply for a loan, especially a mortgage, the lender could ask to see your outgoing cash flow statements. Which wouldn’t get into receipt-level detail, but could still potentially allow the lender to discriminate against you. A person with habitual transactions at a casino or liquor store could be perceived as high risk and the lender could jack up the interest rate for that person. I have no clue if lenders _actually_ do this, but they could since they do ask for your outgoing transactions.
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    They could, but for the vast majority of people they won't. Credit scores exist so that they don't have to. Credit card company rolls up your behavior into a number, and passes that to a credit agency like Experian, and they pop a number out to anyone who asks. No one is asking for outgoing transactions unless you're trying to buy a business or are getting a non-standard loan for something
    - noduerme 3y ago
      The vast majority of people don't have to pass intensive government background checks or face potential rejection during a political vetting process. (And I'm talking about in the United States, where questions raised about personal peccadillos during this process wouldn't necessarily result in the sort of watchlisting they would in most nonwestern countries). The fear of having oneself audited is the main reason more people don't run for office. Yes, some narcissistic maniacs have managed to slip through by portraying themselves as victims of witch hunts, but the average married person will not run for office if it means their spouse will find out they went to a strip club. Everyone is susceptible to blackmail. The digital trail of expenditures is the key to letting the people with access to that data remain in power.
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  CC doesn’t, the grocery chain does. And they’d love to make money on it.
jameshart 3y ago
What's the basis for this advice? Personally I'd be far more interested to learn that someone running for office refuses to use a credit card to buy groceries because they fear having that information collected and used against them... than that they once spent $500 in a single month on Twinkies. If someone wants to use your spending history against you they don't actually need your credit card bills these days, they can just make something up. Look at the insanity that people managed to create out of John Podesta's office pizza orders.
- shishy 3y ago
  I interpreted it more as “it’s a trail of information that could be used against you” instead of literally, but I could be wrong
  - jameshart 3y ago
    If you look at the recent history of scandals that have had zero to negative reputational impact on politicians and public figures in Western democracies - we’re talking Access Hollywood, tax fraud, undeclared gifts, gross nepotism, punching journalists, flouting public health laws, sexual impropriety, lying about your career and life story, mishandling of classified information, and just plain incompetence - what on earth do you think the harm could be of someone getting hold of someone’s old credit card bills?
    - courseofaction 3y ago
      A resourced adversary relentlessly publicizing them?
      - scubbo 3y ago
        Given how relentlessly (just to pick a particular example) Epstein's crimes, accomplices, and associated have been publicized, and the negligible impact, why do you think that would be impactful?
      - jameshart 3y ago
gloryjulio 3y ago
What's wrong with junk food?
- tiedieconderoga 3y ago
  Health insurance companies could buy the info, charge you more. Same reason why, if you insist on installing an app from your auto insurance company, you should not let it access location data.
  - gloryjulio 3y ago
    Tbf, in a ideal world I think it's justifiable and even helpful to steer ppl towards healthy options. Unfortunately there is no ideal world
kernoble 3y ago
Even with cash, you can't buy a plane ticket without handing over all your info. Which is a good thing! And, if I had to guess, the booking of hotel rooms probably has more to do with liability rather than tracking. There are plenty of ways of getting a roof over your head without using a credit card; though IMO they are likely a downgrade. While your statements resonate with me, it's a bit hyperbolic to say that electronic payments/banking are the only way of exerting the control you're worried about. I think there are a lot of good points in this line of complaint about centralized private financial systems, but the ones you're raising are a bit fringe.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  > Even with cash, you can't buy a plane ticket without handing over all your info. Which is a good thing! Why is that a good thing? You used to be able to walk into the airport, pay cash at the ticket counter for a ticket, and get on the plane. Compared to the fantastic level of nonsense we put up with today?
  - derf_ 3y ago
    In the 1974 political thriller The Parallax View, one of the characters boards a plane at LAX, and then purchases a ticket from the stewardess. It is the most jarring scene in the entire film.
    - TrueSlacker0 3y ago
      In this film they used to trust people? What a novelty in today's society. I wish we had more of it.
DiscourseFan 3y ago
Well many (not sure if all) strip clubs are basically legal brothels that run on cash specifically because a) they are (usually) in with local organized crime and b) so when the girls get their "tips" they can't be scrutinized about what service they provided to acquire it.
- noduerme 3y ago
  I know a lot of women who work at or have worked at strip clubs (including my partner of many years). While there's sometimes an organized crime element, those are often the safer ones for girls to work at. The blanket statement that they're "legal brothels" is far from the truth. In fact, most will fire girls for any sort of illegal contact, onsite or offsite, with customers. I've heard myriad stories of girls being fired for selling services. That said, your comment doesn't deserve downvotes, because this very much depends on where you live. It's true that some of them are as crooked as you say. I can usually tell within a minute of walking into one. And if that's been your experience then I can't blame you for holding that perception. But I don't think it's true over all in America.
  - DiscourseFan 3y ago
    Its the same case with massage parlors: they either have very well-trained masseuses and take cards, or they are just brothels that may or may not actually give you a massage. I don't think its a bad thing at all...but I can't imagine the working conditions are always great. The thing that makes people uncomfortable about prostitution is the idea that some of the girls might actually be doing it completely willingly (they might even be enjoying it): I don't think the problem, then, is with the existence of these types of establishments, but the complete lack of regulation.
imgabe 3y ago
> things that you might not want being counted up if you ever run for office. Granted, I don't see a lot of campaign ads, but has this ever happened? Has anyone ever run an ad like "My opponent's credit card bill shows they bought nothing but Funyuns and Jack Daniels for the entire month of August. How can you vote for this person?"

cipheredStones 3y ago

> Don't put your groceries on a credit card. ...huh? "Don't use store membership cards that track your specific purchases" is one thing, but in what world does your credit card processor get info about the individual goods on your receipt?

smilespray 3y ago
Pretty sure the data about individual goods is up for sale. Didn't Google start buying this kind of data to match up online purchase intent with real-world purchases?
ricksebak 3y ago
If you apply for a loan, especially a mortgage, the lender could ask to see your outgoing cash flow statements. Which wouldn’t get into receipt-level detail, but could still potentially allow the lender to discriminate against you. A person with habitual transactions at a casino or liquor store could be perceived as high risk and the lender could jack up the interest rate for that person. I have no clue if lenders _actually_ do this, but they could since they do ask for your outgoing transactions.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  They could, but for the vast majority of people they won't. Credit scores exist so that they don't have to. Credit card company rolls up your behavior into a number, and passes that to a credit agency like Experian, and they pop a number out to anyone who asks. No one is asking for outgoing transactions unless you're trying to buy a business or are getting a non-standard loan for something
  - noduerme 3y ago
    The vast majority of people don't have to pass intensive government background checks or face potential rejection during a political vetting process. (And I'm talking about in the United States, where questions raised about personal peccadillos during this process wouldn't necessarily result in the sort of watchlisting they would in most nonwestern countries). The fear of having oneself audited is the main reason more people don't run for office. Yes, some narcissistic maniacs have managed to slip through by portraying themselves as victims of witch hunts, but the average married person will not run for office if it means their spouse will find out they went to a strip club. Everyone is susceptible to blackmail. The digital trail of expenditures is the key to letting the people with access to that data remain in power.
mixmastamyk 3y ago
CC doesn’t, the grocery chain does. And they’d love to make money on it.

jameshart 3y ago

What's the basis for this advice? Personally I'd be far more interested to learn that someone running for office refuses to use a credit card to buy groceries because they fear having that information collected and used against them... than that they once spent $500 in a single month on Twinkies. If someone wants to use your spending history against you they don't actually need your credit card bills these days, they can just make something up. Look at the insanity that people managed to create out of John Podesta's office pizza orders.

shishy 3y ago
I interpreted it more as “it’s a trail of information that could be used against you” instead of literally, but I could be wrong
- jameshart 3y ago
  If you look at the recent history of scandals that have had zero to negative reputational impact on politicians and public figures in Western democracies - we’re talking Access Hollywood, tax fraud, undeclared gifts, gross nepotism, punching journalists, flouting public health laws, sexual impropriety, lying about your career and life story, mishandling of classified information, and just plain incompetence - what on earth do you think the harm could be of someone getting hold of someone’s old credit card bills?
  - courseofaction 3y ago
    A resourced adversary relentlessly publicizing them?
    - scubbo 3y ago
      Given how relentlessly (just to pick a particular example) Epstein's crimes, accomplices, and associated have been publicized, and the negligible impact, why do you think that would be impactful?
    - jameshart 3y ago

gloryjulio 3y ago

What's wrong with junk food?

tiedieconderoga 3y ago
Health insurance companies could buy the info, charge you more. Same reason why, if you insist on installing an app from your auto insurance company, you should not let it access location data.
- gloryjulio 3y ago
  Tbf, in a ideal world I think it's justifiable and even helpful to steer ppl towards healthy options. Unfortunately there is no ideal world

kernoble 3y ago

Even with cash, you can't buy a plane ticket without handing over all your info. Which is a good thing! And, if I had to guess, the booking of hotel rooms probably has more to do with liability rather than tracking. There are plenty of ways of getting a roof over your head without using a credit card; though IMO they are likely a downgrade. While your statements resonate with me, it's a bit hyperbolic to say that electronic payments/banking are the only way of exerting the control you're worried about. I think there are a lot of good points in this line of complaint about centralized private financial systems, but the ones you're raising are a bit fringe.

SoftTalker 3y ago
> Even with cash, you can't buy a plane ticket without handing over all your info. Which is a good thing! Why is that a good thing? You used to be able to walk into the airport, pay cash at the ticket counter for a ticket, and get on the plane. Compared to the fantastic level of nonsense we put up with today?
- derf_ 3y ago
  In the 1974 political thriller The Parallax View, one of the characters boards a plane at LAX, and then purchases a ticket from the stewardess. It is the most jarring scene in the entire film.
  - TrueSlacker0 3y ago
    In this film they used to trust people? What a novelty in today's society. I wish we had more of it.

DiscourseFan 3y ago

Well many (not sure if all) strip clubs are basically legal brothels that run on cash specifically because a) they are (usually) in with local organized crime and b) so when the girls get their "tips" they can't be scrutinized about what service they provided to acquire it.

noduerme 3y ago
I know a lot of women who work at or have worked at strip clubs (including my partner of many years). While there's sometimes an organized crime element, those are often the safer ones for girls to work at. The blanket statement that they're "legal brothels" is far from the truth. In fact, most will fire girls for any sort of illegal contact, onsite or offsite, with customers. I've heard myriad stories of girls being fired for selling services. That said, your comment doesn't deserve downvotes, because this very much depends on where you live. It's true that some of them are as crooked as you say. I can usually tell within a minute of walking into one. And if that's been your experience then I can't blame you for holding that perception. But I don't think it's true over all in America.
- DiscourseFan 3y ago
  Its the same case with massage parlors: they either have very well-trained masseuses and take cards, or they are just brothels that may or may not actually give you a massage. I don't think its a bad thing at all...but I can't imagine the working conditions are always great. The thing that makes people uncomfortable about prostitution is the idea that some of the girls might actually be doing it completely willingly (they might even be enjoying it): I don't think the problem, then, is with the existence of these types of establishments, but the complete lack of regulation.

imgabe 3y ago

> things that you might not want being counted up if you ever run for office. Granted, I don't see a lot of campaign ads, but has this ever happened? Has anyone ever run an ad like "My opponent's credit card bill shows they bought nothing but Funyuns and Jack Daniels for the entire month of August. How can you vote for this person?"