5 ms·

It seems like battery swapping could potentially make battery charging a side issue.

by m0llusk 3y ago

spaceguillotine 3y ago
Titanfall 2 showed us the way!
gregman1 3y ago
Unfortunately this ground breaking technology exists only in China.
pornel 3y ago
It's already being done by retrofitting diesel trucks. It's interesting they can change gears without having a clutch. https://fullycharged.show/episodes/this-giant-electric-semi-can-swap-out-its-batteries/ https://fullycharged.show/episodes/this-giant-electric-semi-...
fallat 3y ago
Yeah... battery swapping seems like the next big thing for e-vecs. Imagine we shared batteries and all batteries must have some sort of reporting mechanism to report its life and charge holding and it must always be at 80% before being repurposed / fixed? Could be interesting...
- hedora 3y ago
  Consumer car batteries charge 20->80% in under a half hour these days, and are warranted for a minimum of 8 years. 30 minutes seems slow until you realize that you hardly ever need to charge the car away from home. I do not miss going to the gas station! I’d guess the mechanisms needed to swap the battery would be more maintenance than they are worth. I guess for delivery vans, which drive during peak solar production, doubling the number of batteries so you can charge during the day might make sense.
  - FpUser 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Animatronio 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - FpUser 3y ago
        [flagged]
        seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        Reading the question the answer was replying to, the conversation had already jumped the shark.
        Animatronio 3y ago
        Uhh, sorry I thought inductive roads were a dumb idea and I couldn't resist. But still I expected sarcasm to be obvious.
    - theshrike79 3y ago
      "During snowstorm sometimes miles of the highway can be filled with stranded card. I wonder what will happen when all those cars are gasoline powered and the tanks depleted." You can literally camp in an EV for days with a comfy temp inside. And if you're stuck in traffic for _days_, you've got bigger issues or you live in an area where you should never drive anywhere without a Get Home Bag anyway. I live in Scandinavia where the temps get regularly below -20C and an EV is the best option to have by far. No car ever has been as warm as fast during winters.
      - FpUser 3y ago
        I am talking about charging / towing massive amount of cars. A bit o fuel for each can be delivered easily. Situaton is different with the batteries.
- pnw 3y ago
  Given that Tesla tried battery swaps and canned it, and that venture funded startups already burned a billion dollars trying it and failing, I don't think many companies are eager to repeat the experiment.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    China is doing it. The key thing is you need more than just a billion dollars, you need a dozen times that (or more, but the CCP doesn't need to worry about money) and credible political commitment that customers won't be left stuck with useless cars down the road.
    - theshrike79 3y ago
      NIO is doing some crazy crap, dunno how they pay for it. They even have literal charging vans you can just order to come anywhere you want. You use an app to request one, they drive to your location and charge your car. Plus they have the manned battery swap stations everyone has seen a video of.
      - mschuster91 3y ago
        China is throwing money at the problem, as simple as that. They're all too aware that their pollution issues need to be solved, and if it kickstarts an industry that can undercut Western competition, all the better..
    - fwungy 3y ago
      China is not worried about safety and reliability in the same way Western producers are. They don't have the same liability laws. Tesla and the major automakers can't risk their name and reputation on a crap product.
      - netsharc 3y ago
        > Tesla [...] can't risk their name and reputation on a crap product. Full Self Driving has entered the chat...
bertil 3y ago
I also really liked the idea, but some specialists have argued it would be hard to provide rigidity. Given the load that heavy trucks have to face, this sounds like a bigger problem for trucks than for cars. I think we should focus on either: - charging on the go if those trucks use highways for long-distance, maybe have self-driving trucks drive at night and charge on the way; or better: - moving that cargo on train lines and using trucks with small batteries for the distance between the nearest train station and the final destination. That opens the possibility of using smaller trucks for many routes, which would really help with road safety, especially in dense areas. Trucks that can pull 15 tons or more are unsafe near children.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- CharlesW 3y ago
  > I also really liked the idea, but some specialists have argued it would be hard to provide rigidity. Do you happen to have any pointers to more info on this? I don't understand what would prevent the industry from standardizing on a structural battery pack rigid enough for the use case.
  - rektide 3y ago
    Then you overbuild the pack. The criticism of the new EV hummer's pack is an example, and it didn't even need swappability, is just trying to get the batteries to stay adequately in place. https://insideevs.com/news/668428/hummer-ev-battery-teardown-reveals-excessive-complexity-weight/ https://insideevs.com/news/668428/hummer-ev-battery-teardown... Imo rigidity still feels like a semi bullshit gripe though. A lift should be able to rise up under the vehicle and uniformly support the batteries. The vehicle can then let them go. I imagine the batteries more or less suspended underneath the vehicle in this configuration, with a latching mechanism holding them up. Some cross bracing to provide structure. Making sure the batteries stay attached though, that they don't give flying in a crash, is a significant & obvious problem though, now that I think of it.
    - 3y ago
plorg 3y ago
In the medium and heavy vehicle industry one of the big discussions is on reuse of batteries at economic EOL. The idea is that after maybe 600 charge cycles a vehicle-sized battery will have a lot of life left but will no longer support the range that high-duty-cycle vehicles require. So they can be recycled into grid storage in a way that creates a virtuous cycle. Battery swapping might even be a good way to jump start such a system since it could produce a flexible system for curve flattening both by charging in off-peak hours while still supporting fixed-installation vehicle packs. The downside is that this makes battery systems less flexible, since batteries have to be of some fixed physical dimensions. This may not be practical for certain compact vehicles, but could be implemented more easily with straight trucks.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  As long as the packs can be taken out of the vehicle without damaging either and the packs don't have DRM crap, packs can trivially be re-used by attaching them to a charge controller.
- wilg 3y ago
  The batteries can be recycled into raw materials and rebuilt as new packs with full health at greater than 99% efficiency.
  - plorg 3y ago
    I think the idea is that it costs much more labor and energy to fully recycle a battery pack than to repurpose it, and you can always do the recycling later on. If you're suggesting the time, energy, and safety and compromises required to design vehicles around modular batteries might not be offset by the cost delta of recycling I think that's a reasonable concern. Combining this with swappable packs might change the variables. A system by which packs are routinely switched out and frequently tested could easily lead to a robust circular economy and could provide a better alternative to Vehicle To Grid solutions for load shifting.
    - wilg 3y ago
hawski 3y ago
I would naively think that putting the bigger part of the battery in the trailer is a good idea. Now someone can tell me why it isn't.
- chroma 3y ago
  The limiting factor for electric vehicle production is batteries. Trailers spend a lot more time sitting around than tractor units. It's more economically efficient to use the batteries as much as possible rather than have them sitting around. Trailers come in many form factors: container, flat bet, end-dump. Heck, sometimes you just want to tow another tractor. Those different form factors have different constraints in terms of battery size and shape. You'd still need big batteries in some tractor units so that they could drop off trailers. All tractor units would need small batteries so they could go short distances without a trailer.
chroma 3y ago
Battery swapping is one of those ideas that sounds good but has enough disadvantages that it's rarely worth it. - Your vehicle design will be less efficient and more expensive than one without the constraint of an easily-removable battery. - Just like with phones, removable batteries mean that you have more ingresses for water and dirt, hurting reliability. - You have to standardize on battery sizes and interfaces. If some new battery technology comes along, or you want to change the chassis (to improve crash safety, for example) you'll have to create a new standard. - In modern EVs, batteries have liquid coolant pumped through them. This lets the vehicle keep the battery at optimal temperatures for charging, discharging, and avoiding degradation in hot climates. Swapping batteries means coming up with another solution for controlling battery temperatures. - In addition to specially-designed cars and batteries, you also need specially designed swapping stations. Again if you ever change the standards, you'll have to upgrade these stations. All of these issues mean that battery swapping drastically increases cost and complexity for little benefit. A swap will take five minutes, while charging to 80% can take as little as 15 minutes. There's also the issue that batteries are valuable, and the owner of the vehicle probably wants their original battery back (or at least one without more wear & tear). Then you get into issues of compensating or charging people thousands of dollars depending on their new battery's degradation level. It's much simpler to give up on swapping and focus on improving charging speeds, which is exactly what Tesla did.
- gamblor956 3y ago
  Yes, these are all issues for personal-use vehicles. It's much less of a concern for trucking companies, many of which already have multiple depos across their routes and thus are already in a position to swap batteries from one truck they own to another truck they own.
  - Reason077 3y ago
    Truck batteries are enormous and swapping them would be a huge logistical challenge / pain in the ass. Better to just swap the whole tractor unit out if fast charging is not available for some reason. After all, it’s really just a battery (+motor and cab) on wheels.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
Seems to be working well in Australia. They change batteries in 5 minutes using a fork lift, versus the ~20 minutes it takes to fill a truck with diesel. https://www.januselectric.com.au/ https://www.januselectric.com.au/

It seems like battery swapping could potentially make battery charging a side issue.

spaceguillotine 3y ago

Titanfall 2 showed us the way!

gregman1 3y ago

Unfortunately this ground breaking technology exists only in China.

pornel 3y ago

It's already being done by retrofitting diesel trucks. It's interesting they can change gears without having a clutch. https://fullycharged.show/episodes/this-giant-electric-semi-can-swap-out-its-batteries/ https://fullycharged.show/episodes/this-giant-electric-semi-...

fallat 3y ago

Yeah... battery swapping seems like the next big thing for e-vecs. Imagine we shared batteries and all batteries must have some sort of reporting mechanism to report its life and charge holding and it must always be at 80% before being repurposed / fixed? Could be interesting...

hedora 3y ago
Consumer car batteries charge 20->80% in under a half hour these days, and are warranted for a minimum of 8 years. 30 minutes seems slow until you realize that you hardly ever need to charge the car away from home. I do not miss going to the gas station! I’d guess the mechanisms needed to swap the battery would be more maintenance than they are worth. I guess for delivery vans, which drive during peak solar production, doubling the number of batteries so you can charge during the day might make sense.
- FpUser 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Animatronio 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - FpUser 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        Reading the question the answer was replying to, the conversation had already jumped the shark.
      - Animatronio 3y ago
        Uhh, sorry I thought inductive roads were a dumb idea and I couldn't resist. But still I expected sarcasm to be obvious.
  - theshrike79 3y ago
    "During snowstorm sometimes miles of the highway can be filled with stranded card. I wonder what will happen when all those cars are gasoline powered and the tanks depleted." You can literally camp in an EV for days with a comfy temp inside. And if you're stuck in traffic for _days_, you've got bigger issues or you live in an area where you should never drive anywhere without a Get Home Bag anyway. I live in Scandinavia where the temps get regularly below -20C and an EV is the best option to have by far. No car ever has been as warm as fast during winters.
    - FpUser 3y ago
      I am talking about charging / towing massive amount of cars. A bit o fuel for each can be delivered easily. Situaton is different with the batteries.
pnw 3y ago
Given that Tesla tried battery swaps and canned it, and that venture funded startups already burned a billion dollars trying it and failing, I don't think many companies are eager to repeat the experiment.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  China is doing it. The key thing is you need more than just a billion dollars, you need a dozen times that (or more, but the CCP doesn't need to worry about money) and credible political commitment that customers won't be left stuck with useless cars down the road.
  - theshrike79 3y ago
    NIO is doing some crazy crap, dunno how they pay for it. They even have literal charging vans you can just order to come anywhere you want. You use an app to request one, they drive to your location and charge your car. Plus they have the manned battery swap stations everyone has seen a video of.
    - mschuster91 3y ago
      China is throwing money at the problem, as simple as that. They're all too aware that their pollution issues need to be solved, and if it kickstarts an industry that can undercut Western competition, all the better..
  - fwungy 3y ago
    China is not worried about safety and reliability in the same way Western producers are. They don't have the same liability laws. Tesla and the major automakers can't risk their name and reputation on a crap product.
    - netsharc 3y ago
      > Tesla [...] can't risk their name and reputation on a crap product. Full Self Driving has entered the chat...

bertil 3y ago

I also really liked the idea, but some specialists have argued it would be hard to provide rigidity. Given the load that heavy trucks have to face, this sounds like a bigger problem for trucks than for cars. I think we should focus on either: - charging on the go if those trucks use highways for long-distance, maybe have self-driving trucks drive at night and charge on the way; or better: - moving that cargo on train lines and using trucks with small batteries for the distance between the nearest train station and the final destination. That opens the possibility of using smaller trucks for many routes, which would really help with road safety, especially in dense areas. Trucks that can pull 15 tons or more are unsafe near children.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
CharlesW 3y ago
> I also really liked the idea, but some specialists have argued it would be hard to provide rigidity. Do you happen to have any pointers to more info on this? I don't understand what would prevent the industry from standardizing on a structural battery pack rigid enough for the use case.
- rektide 3y ago
  Then you overbuild the pack. The criticism of the new EV hummer's pack is an example, and it didn't even need swappability, is just trying to get the batteries to stay adequately in place. https://insideevs.com/news/668428/hummer-ev-battery-teardown-reveals-excessive-complexity-weight/ https://insideevs.com/news/668428/hummer-ev-battery-teardown... Imo rigidity still feels like a semi bullshit gripe though. A lift should be able to rise up under the vehicle and uniformly support the batteries. The vehicle can then let them go. I imagine the batteries more or less suspended underneath the vehicle in this configuration, with a latching mechanism holding them up. Some cross bracing to provide structure. Making sure the batteries stay attached though, that they don't give flying in a crash, is a significant & obvious problem though, now that I think of it.
  - 3y ago

plorg 3y ago

In the medium and heavy vehicle industry one of the big discussions is on reuse of batteries at economic EOL. The idea is that after maybe 600 charge cycles a vehicle-sized battery will have a lot of life left but will no longer support the range that high-duty-cycle vehicles require. So they can be recycled into grid storage in a way that creates a virtuous cycle. Battery swapping might even be a good way to jump start such a system since it could produce a flexible system for curve flattening both by charging in off-peak hours while still supporting fixed-installation vehicle packs. The downside is that this makes battery systems less flexible, since batteries have to be of some fixed physical dimensions. This may not be practical for certain compact vehicles, but could be implemented more easily with straight trucks.

mschuster91 3y ago
As long as the packs can be taken out of the vehicle without damaging either and the packs don't have DRM crap, packs can trivially be re-used by attaching them to a charge controller.
wilg 3y ago
The batteries can be recycled into raw materials and rebuilt as new packs with full health at greater than 99% efficiency.
- plorg 3y ago
  I think the idea is that it costs much more labor and energy to fully recycle a battery pack than to repurpose it, and you can always do the recycling later on. If you're suggesting the time, energy, and safety and compromises required to design vehicles around modular batteries might not be offset by the cost delta of recycling I think that's a reasonable concern. Combining this with swappable packs might change the variables. A system by which packs are routinely switched out and frequently tested could easily lead to a robust circular economy and could provide a better alternative to Vehicle To Grid solutions for load shifting.
  - wilg 3y ago

hawski 3y ago

I would naively think that putting the bigger part of the battery in the trailer is a good idea. Now someone can tell me why it isn't.

chroma 3y ago
The limiting factor for electric vehicle production is batteries. Trailers spend a lot more time sitting around than tractor units. It's more economically efficient to use the batteries as much as possible rather than have them sitting around. Trailers come in many form factors: container, flat bet, end-dump. Heck, sometimes you just want to tow another tractor. Those different form factors have different constraints in terms of battery size and shape. You'd still need big batteries in some tractor units so that they could drop off trailers. All tractor units would need small batteries so they could go short distances without a trailer.

chroma 3y ago

Battery swapping is one of those ideas that sounds good but has enough disadvantages that it's rarely worth it. - Your vehicle design will be less efficient and more expensive than one without the constraint of an easily-removable battery. - Just like with phones, removable batteries mean that you have more ingresses for water and dirt, hurting reliability. - You have to standardize on battery sizes and interfaces. If some new battery technology comes along, or you want to change the chassis (to improve crash safety, for example) you'll have to create a new standard. - In modern EVs, batteries have liquid coolant pumped through them. This lets the vehicle keep the battery at optimal temperatures for charging, discharging, and avoiding degradation in hot climates. Swapping batteries means coming up with another solution for controlling battery temperatures. - In addition to specially-designed cars and batteries, you also need specially designed swapping stations. Again if you ever change the standards, you'll have to upgrade these stations. All of these issues mean that battery swapping drastically increases cost and complexity for little benefit. A swap will take five minutes, while charging to 80% can take as little as 15 minutes. There's also the issue that batteries are valuable, and the owner of the vehicle probably wants their original battery back (or at least one without more wear & tear). Then you get into issues of compensating or charging people thousands of dollars depending on their new battery's degradation level. It's much simpler to give up on swapping and focus on improving charging speeds, which is exactly what Tesla did.

gamblor956 3y ago
Yes, these are all issues for personal-use vehicles. It's much less of a concern for trucking companies, many of which already have multiple depos across their routes and thus are already in a position to swap batteries from one truck they own to another truck they own.
- Reason077 3y ago
  Truck batteries are enormous and swapping them would be a huge logistical challenge / pain in the ass. Better to just swap the whole tractor unit out if fast charging is not available for some reason. After all, it’s really just a battery (+motor and cab) on wheels.

bryanlarsen 3y ago

Seems to be working well in Australia. They change batteries in 5 minutes using a fork lift, versus the ~20 minutes it takes to fill a truck with diesel. https://www.januselectric.com.au/ https://www.januselectric.com.au/