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You checked out visual depictions of fellatio in your high school library? Given that books not unlike the linked one have been showing up in public school libr

You checked out visual depictions of fellatio in your high school library? Given that books not unlike the linked one have been showing up in public school libraries for at least the last 20 years, I can't say I'm surprised. And moreso, you can't see it from someone else's perspective who might have a problem with this? Do you have children?

woodruffw 3y ago
I said “adult,” not visual. The books I was thinking of were published in 1979[1] and 1978[1], respectively. It doesn’t matter whether I or anyone else has a problem with it. What matters is whether adolescents have a right to read it, which they do. I exercised that right as a student, and I would like other students to be able to do the same. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie%27s_Choice_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie%27s_Choice_(novel) [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_According_to_Garp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_According_to_Garp
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  I'm having trouble telling whether or not you clicked the archive.org link or not. It's a "graphic novel". I don't see what the big deal is calling it a comic book, but oh well. Click it. See for yourself. > What matters is whether adolescents have a right to read it, w They don't have any such right, best that I can understand the legal framework of the western world. For instance, they don't have the right to have sex with adults. Anyone who claimed that they were being denied such a right, well... do we really need to spell out how those claimants would be treated? Minors are permitted by responsible adults to read age-appropriate books. We don't say that refusing to put The Anarchist Cookbook up in 4th grade libraries is censorship. At least non-lunatics don't. There are books that they will be allowed to read once legal adults, but that reading earlier might have adverse developmental effects. It's generally agreed that actual pornography is one such category.
  - orwin 3y ago
    If your kid never, ever saw a pornographic image (or an erotica one) before 15, you and his friends' parents are really monitoring them closely. For me it was a playboy at 13, for my friends probably the same, but I'm sure the internet bring the age lower,and pack more actions. When I think about your link of a graphic novel and the first playboy I read, I'm pretty sure any parent would prefer the graphic novel where a poorly done 2 image strip depicts a fellation, and the text besides is... Less than erotic let's say. And btw: i read 'when I was 5 I killed myself' from Buten at around the same age (maybe 14), as well as flowers for algernon and 1984, I don't think they are age-appropriate books, but they are worth reading when adolescent, because you experience them harder, and formative. Buten in particular wrote hard books.
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    > Click it. See for yourself. I did. Please don’t call people liars. It’s a graphic novel depicting a sex act, albeit not particularly erotically. The entire point of my other comments was that I checked out other books in high school, books that are widely considered excellent and have been for decades, that contained far more explicit “inappropriate” content. The only things different here are the facts that it’s (1) drawn, and (2) concerns LGBTQ identity. > They don't have any such right, best that I can understand the legal framework of the western world. We live under a negative legal scheme, not a positive one. I’m not aware of any law that says that children cannot read what they’d like to read, either federal or state. Obscenity in the US has a distinct legal test[1], one that you and I both understand this book (and Sophie’s Choice) would pass easily. It also doesn’t mention children anywhere. Finally: nobody in this thread wants children to be hurt, or to be exposed to things that will hurt them. But books, especially ones that are presented and explainable within an educational context, do not hurt children. If anything, adults tend to hurt themselves and others more based on books than children do. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test
- rayiner 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
    > I’m persuaded that one of the reasons European Americans underperform relative to Asian immigrants—especially at the bottom of the income spectrum—is that Asian families strongly discourage teenage preoccupation with sexual activity and relationships in favor of focusing energies on education No, it’s because the barriers to immigration are much higher to Asian immigrants than the people who already live here. You will also see this in Nigerian-American families. The effect goes away after a few generations, and in the case of black immigrants racism is so effective the effect goes away with their children.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      > No, it’s because the barriers to immigration are much higher to Asian immigrants than the people who already live here Incorrect. By far the main vehicle for permanent immigration under American law is family reunification, which isn’t based on skills or education. A large fraction of the Asian American population is also refugees from countries like Vietnam and Korea. There are a huge number of poor Asian immigrants, and they vastly outperform similarly lower income European Americans: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/27/upshot/make-your-own-mobility-animation.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/27/upshot/make-y... (use the chart to compare economic outcomes of Asians in the bottom 1/5 to whites in the bottom 1/5). See also: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2057150X20973802 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2057150X209738... (“Rather than being a class phenomenon, Asian cultural factors have important effects for most second-generation Asian Americans regardless of the socioeconomic status of their parents.”). The effect does go away over time, but that’s because kids adopt American culture. E.g. Mindy Kaling and her new show. Nigerian immigrants also outperform European Americans (and Asian anmericans) even after taking into account income and education: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/23780231211001971 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/23780231211001971. Their parenting style tends to be extremely rigid and disciplined.
  - 3y ago

woodruffw 3y ago

I said “adult,” not visual. The books I was thinking of were published in 1979[1] and 1978[1], respectively. It doesn’t matter whether I or anyone else has a problem with it. What matters is whether adolescents have a right to read it, which they do. I exercised that right as a student, and I would like other students to be able to do the same. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie%27s_Choice_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie%27s_Choice_(novel) [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_According_to_Garp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_According_to_Garp

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
I'm having trouble telling whether or not you clicked the archive.org link or not. It's a "graphic novel". I don't see what the big deal is calling it a comic book, but oh well. Click it. See for yourself. > What matters is whether adolescents have a right to read it, w They don't have any such right, best that I can understand the legal framework of the western world. For instance, they don't have the right to have sex with adults. Anyone who claimed that they were being denied such a right, well... do we really need to spell out how those claimants would be treated? Minors are permitted by responsible adults to read age-appropriate books. We don't say that refusing to put The Anarchist Cookbook up in 4th grade libraries is censorship. At least non-lunatics don't. There are books that they will be allowed to read once legal adults, but that reading earlier might have adverse developmental effects. It's generally agreed that actual pornography is one such category.
- orwin 3y ago
  If your kid never, ever saw a pornographic image (or an erotica one) before 15, you and his friends' parents are really monitoring them closely. For me it was a playboy at 13, for my friends probably the same, but I'm sure the internet bring the age lower,and pack more actions. When I think about your link of a graphic novel and the first playboy I read, I'm pretty sure any parent would prefer the graphic novel where a poorly done 2 image strip depicts a fellation, and the text besides is... Less than erotic let's say. And btw: i read 'when I was 5 I killed myself' from Buten at around the same age (maybe 14), as well as flowers for algernon and 1984, I don't think they are age-appropriate books, but they are worth reading when adolescent, because you experience them harder, and formative. Buten in particular wrote hard books.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  > Click it. See for yourself. I did. Please don’t call people liars. It’s a graphic novel depicting a sex act, albeit not particularly erotically. The entire point of my other comments was that I checked out other books in high school, books that are widely considered excellent and have been for decades, that contained far more explicit “inappropriate” content. The only things different here are the facts that it’s (1) drawn, and (2) concerns LGBTQ identity. > They don't have any such right, best that I can understand the legal framework of the western world. We live under a negative legal scheme, not a positive one. I’m not aware of any law that says that children cannot read what they’d like to read, either federal or state. Obscenity in the US has a distinct legal test[1], one that you and I both understand this book (and Sophie’s Choice) would pass easily. It also doesn’t mention children anywhere. Finally: nobody in this thread wants children to be hurt, or to be exposed to things that will hurt them. But books, especially ones that are presented and explainable within an educational context, do not hurt children. If anything, adults tend to hurt themselves and others more based on books than children do. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test
rayiner 3y ago
[flagged]
- SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
  > I’m persuaded that one of the reasons European Americans underperform relative to Asian immigrants—especially at the bottom of the income spectrum—is that Asian families strongly discourage teenage preoccupation with sexual activity and relationships in favor of focusing energies on education No, it’s because the barriers to immigration are much higher to Asian immigrants than the people who already live here. You will also see this in Nigerian-American families. The effect goes away after a few generations, and in the case of black immigrants racism is so effective the effect goes away with their children.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    > No, it’s because the barriers to immigration are much higher to Asian immigrants than the people who already live here Incorrect. By far the main vehicle for permanent immigration under American law is family reunification, which isn’t based on skills or education. A large fraction of the Asian American population is also refugees from countries like Vietnam and Korea. There are a huge number of poor Asian immigrants, and they vastly outperform similarly lower income European Americans: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/27/upshot/make-your-own-mobility-animation.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/27/upshot/make-y... (use the chart to compare economic outcomes of Asians in the bottom 1/5 to whites in the bottom 1/5). See also: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2057150X20973802 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2057150X209738... (“Rather than being a class phenomenon, Asian cultural factors have important effects for most second-generation Asian Americans regardless of the socioeconomic status of their parents.”). The effect does go away over time, but that’s because kids adopt American culture. E.g. Mindy Kaling and her new show. Nigerian immigrants also outperform European Americans (and Asian anmericans) even after taking into account income and education: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/23780231211001971 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/23780231211001971. Their parenting style tends to be extremely rigid and disciplined.
- 3y ago