3 ms·

I recently looked up one of these books that was on the "banned" list. Someone had scanned it in on archive.org. I just checked, and it was either the #1 banned

I recently looked up one of these books that was on the "banned" list. Someone had scanned it in on archive.org. I just checked, and it was either the #1 banned book on most lists, or made the top 10. Gender Queer by Kobabe. You can see it for yourself. https://archive.org/details/gender-queer-a-memoir-by-maia-kobabe-z-lib.org/page/168/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/gender-queer-a-memoir-by-maia-ko... This is apparently what it would be censorship to keep out of gradeschool libraries. If you're ok with the book, then I guess there's not much more to talk about. If you're now not ok with the book, then I guess this is the first time you actually saw inside of it. We're told that there is a difference between doctrine and curation, and maybe in some theoretical world this is true. But in the world we actually live in, doctrine's already being pushed... they're just pretending that they're "merely curating". And they're demanding that the other side not be allowed any oversight on that curation. When they curate, good, when anyone else does it, well... they're the "bad guys". Personally, I could not care less. If you want this book in schools, it does not affect me. But you should know what book it is we're talking about. Take a look, click the link.

woodruffw 3y ago
I would not bat an eye at this in a high school library, no. I checked out books that were substantially more adult in nature than this appears to be.
- lelanthran 3y ago
  > I would not bat an eye at this in a high school library, no. I checked out books that were substantially more adult in nature than this appears to be. Maybe you wouldn't, but be honest with yourself - how many parents want their school to hold and keep pornographic material? If you want to show your kids sexually graphic images, then sure, fine, have at it. You're complaining that you can't show these images to other people's kids, and you're complaining that those parents are a problem?
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    I think my adjacent comment addresses this adequately.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
    Then you tell your librarian that your child may not check this book out specifically. I seriously don’t understand the problem here. Maybe another child will appreciate a depiction of healthy communication in sexual interactions, because highschool teens are definitely having sex, but if you don’t want your child learning boundaries and healthy communication that’s ok too!
    - lelanthran 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
        You didn’t answer my question why can’t adults pick and choose what material is appropriate for their children only? If you don’t think it’s appropriate just don’t let your own children get their hands on it. I don’t understand why this has to be a debate. I’m actually not that invested in ideology or whatever. You’re prescribing something to me I don’t really care about. I’ve read the book for fun, as an adult, didn’t feel titillated or aroused at all. It’s about as sexual as putting a condom on a banana, and I was definitely doing that in highschool. But even then parents who were uncomfortable could sign a thing preventing their children from attending sex ed. I think we parents can do the same thing for sex ed related books! No big deal.
        lelanthran 3y ago
        > If you don’t think it’s appropriate just don’t let your own children get their hands on it. Society doesn't allow it. Porn operators get into legal trouble for allowing access to kids. Movie theatre operations get into serious trouble for allowing kids in to see movies they are not supposed to. Your argument of "let the kids have everything and make the parents perform the restrictions" is so stupid it's literally never been tried. > I’m actually not that invested in ideology or whatever. I find that hard to believe, considering a) you reacting to an "age-appropriate material" argument being no different from a reaction to "no sex ed" argument. and b) what you are proposing, in general, has literally never been successful before. ALL societies places restrictions on kids whether their parents like it or not. Some are more restrictive and some are less, but they all have restrictions exclusively for children.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  You checked out visual depictions of fellatio in your high school library? Given that books not unlike the linked one have been showing up in public school libraries for at least the last 20 years, I can't say I'm surprised. And moreso, you can't see it from someone else's perspective who might have a problem with this? Do you have children?
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    I said “adult,” not visual. The books I was thinking of were published in 1979[1] and 1978[1], respectively. It doesn’t matter whether I or anyone else has a problem with it. What matters is whether adolescents have a right to read it, which they do. I exercised that right as a student, and I would like other students to be able to do the same. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie%27s_Choice_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie%27s_Choice_(novel) [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_According_to_Garp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_According_to_Garp
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
      I'm having trouble telling whether or not you clicked the archive.org link or not. It's a "graphic novel". I don't see what the big deal is calling it a comic book, but oh well. Click it. See for yourself. > What matters is whether adolescents have a right to read it, w They don't have any such right, best that I can understand the legal framework of the western world. For instance, they don't have the right to have sex with adults. Anyone who claimed that they were being denied such a right, well... do we really need to spell out how those claimants would be treated? Minors are permitted by responsible adults to read age-appropriate books. We don't say that refusing to put The Anarchist Cookbook up in 4th grade libraries is censorship. At least non-lunatics don't. There are books that they will be allowed to read once legal adults, but that reading earlier might have adverse developmental effects. It's generally agreed that actual pornography is one such category.
      - orwin 3y ago
        If your kid never, ever saw a pornographic image (or an erotica one) before 15, you and his friends' parents are really monitoring them closely. For me it was a playboy at 13, for my friends probably the same, but I'm sure the internet bring the age lower,and pack more actions. When I think about your link of a graphic novel and the first playboy I read, I'm pretty sure any parent would prefer the graphic novel where a poorly done 2 image strip depicts a fellation, and the text besides is... Less than erotic let's say. And btw: i read 'when I was 5 I killed myself' from Buten at around the same age (maybe 14), as well as flowers for algernon and 1984, I don't think they are age-appropriate books, but they are worth reading when adolescent, because you experience them harder, and formative. Buten in particular wrote hard books.
morelisp 3y ago
There's no sense in which that's pornographic. The entire point is that it's not sexually arousing.
rayiner 3y ago
[flagged]
- tptacek 3y ago
  You know, because there was a previous thread about this exact book, how misleading that claim is. The book was endorsed for 16-17 year olds, and the ALA category for books for 16 years olds is 12-18.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    That seems like a minor wrinkle that doesn’t change my point. The ALA gave the book an award in a category that’s for 12-18 year olds. That’s exactly what’s conveyed by the ALA website: https://www.ala.org/awardsgrants/alex-awards https://www.ala.org/awardsgrants/alex-awards

woodruffw 3y ago

I would not bat an eye at this in a high school library, no. I checked out books that were substantially more adult in nature than this appears to be.

lelanthran 3y ago
> I would not bat an eye at this in a high school library, no. I checked out books that were substantially more adult in nature than this appears to be. Maybe you wouldn't, but be honest with yourself - how many parents want their school to hold and keep pornographic material? If you want to show your kids sexually graphic images, then sure, fine, have at it. You're complaining that you can't show these images to other people's kids, and you're complaining that those parents are a problem?
- woodruffw 3y ago
  I think my adjacent comment addresses this adequately.
- SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
  Then you tell your librarian that your child may not check this book out specifically. I seriously don’t understand the problem here. Maybe another child will appreciate a depiction of healthy communication in sexual interactions, because highschool teens are definitely having sex, but if you don’t want your child learning boundaries and healthy communication that’s ok too!
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
      You didn’t answer my question why can’t adults pick and choose what material is appropriate for their children only? If you don’t think it’s appropriate just don’t let your own children get their hands on it. I don’t understand why this has to be a debate. I’m actually not that invested in ideology or whatever. You’re prescribing something to me I don’t really care about. I’ve read the book for fun, as an adult, didn’t feel titillated or aroused at all. It’s about as sexual as putting a condom on a banana, and I was definitely doing that in highschool. But even then parents who were uncomfortable could sign a thing preventing their children from attending sex ed. I think we parents can do the same thing for sex ed related books! No big deal.
      - lelanthran 3y ago
        > If you don’t think it’s appropriate just don’t let your own children get their hands on it. Society doesn't allow it. Porn operators get into legal trouble for allowing access to kids. Movie theatre operations get into serious trouble for allowing kids in to see movies they are not supposed to. Your argument of "let the kids have everything and make the parents perform the restrictions" is so stupid it's literally never been tried. > I’m actually not that invested in ideology or whatever. I find that hard to believe, considering a) you reacting to an "age-appropriate material" argument being no different from a reaction to "no sex ed" argument. and b) what you are proposing, in general, has literally never been successful before. ALL societies places restrictions on kids whether their parents like it or not. Some are more restrictive and some are less, but they all have restrictions exclusively for children.
NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
You checked out visual depictions of fellatio in your high school library? Given that books not unlike the linked one have been showing up in public school libraries for at least the last 20 years, I can't say I'm surprised. And moreso, you can't see it from someone else's perspective who might have a problem with this? Do you have children?
- woodruffw 3y ago
  I said “adult,” not visual. The books I was thinking of were published in 1979[1] and 1978[1], respectively. It doesn’t matter whether I or anyone else has a problem with it. What matters is whether adolescents have a right to read it, which they do. I exercised that right as a student, and I would like other students to be able to do the same. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie%27s_Choice_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie%27s_Choice_(novel) [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_According_to_Garp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_According_to_Garp
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    I'm having trouble telling whether or not you clicked the archive.org link or not. It's a "graphic novel". I don't see what the big deal is calling it a comic book, but oh well. Click it. See for yourself. > What matters is whether adolescents have a right to read it, w They don't have any such right, best that I can understand the legal framework of the western world. For instance, they don't have the right to have sex with adults. Anyone who claimed that they were being denied such a right, well... do we really need to spell out how those claimants would be treated? Minors are permitted by responsible adults to read age-appropriate books. We don't say that refusing to put The Anarchist Cookbook up in 4th grade libraries is censorship. At least non-lunatics don't. There are books that they will be allowed to read once legal adults, but that reading earlier might have adverse developmental effects. It's generally agreed that actual pornography is one such category.
    - orwin 3y ago
      If your kid never, ever saw a pornographic image (or an erotica one) before 15, you and his friends' parents are really monitoring them closely. For me it was a playboy at 13, for my friends probably the same, but I'm sure the internet bring the age lower,and pack more actions. When I think about your link of a graphic novel and the first playboy I read, I'm pretty sure any parent would prefer the graphic novel where a poorly done 2 image strip depicts a fellation, and the text besides is... Less than erotic let's say. And btw: i read 'when I was 5 I killed myself' from Buten at around the same age (maybe 14), as well as flowers for algernon and 1984, I don't think they are age-appropriate books, but they are worth reading when adolescent, because you experience them harder, and formative. Buten in particular wrote hard books.

morelisp 3y ago

There's no sense in which that's pornographic. The entire point is that it's not sexually arousing.

rayiner 3y ago

[flagged]

tptacek 3y ago
You know, because there was a previous thread about this exact book, how misleading that claim is. The book was endorsed for 16-17 year olds, and the ALA category for books for 16 years olds is 12-18.
- rayiner 3y ago
  That seems like a minor wrinkle that doesn’t change my point. The ALA gave the book an award in a category that’s for 12-18 year olds. That’s exactly what’s conveyed by the ALA website: https://www.ala.org/awardsgrants/alex-awards https://www.ala.org/awardsgrants/alex-awards