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Why commingle finances at all? A large percentage of divorces are due to financial disagreements... joint accounts have proven to be a failed model at scale. I

Why commingle finances at all? A large percentage of divorces are due to financial disagreements... joint accounts have proven to be a failed model at scale. If you want to share money, have separate accounts and transfer money between them as needed/on a schedule. No room for impropriety/mistrust. Everybody has autonomy. If we choose to be realistic, rather than idealistic, we would recognize that a large percentages of marriages fail, and people should not structure their lives in such a way that the end of a relationship is catastrophic (beyond the obvious emotional burden).

orangepurple 3y ago
> Why commingle finances at all? Stay at home moms which take care of multiple children full time typically do not earn an income
- emodendroket 3y ago
  Even failing that I think you’d get into a lot of ticky-tack calculations about who pays for shoes or school supplies or whatever.
- BobbyJo 3y ago
  Then work out a way to divide income ahead of time rather than quibble after the fact? That's what me and my wife do.
  - emodendroket 3y ago
    My wife and I have just had joint accounts forever and it’s worked out great for us. There must be more than anecdote to go with if we want to have this argument “rationally.” Though if I’m being honest, it has more to do with my ideal of what a committed relationship is about than rational considerations.
- adam_arthur 3y ago
  Then they have their own account that you transfer $X/month into. If you can't agree as a couple on what each person should be spending, then the relationship is on bad footing to begin with.
  - emodendroket 3y ago
    I think this creates an uncomfortable/unequal situation for the non working partner as you’ve essentially set yourself up as an authority figure over them rather than an equal.
    - uninformed 3y ago
      Do you have an alternative in mind?
      - emodendroket 3y ago
        Joint accounts. Isn’t that the subject of discussion?
    - aaronblohowiak 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - emodendroket 3y ago
        I’m open to suggestions if you think a better term is on offer.
        c22 3y ago
        I've heard "stay-at-home" used.
        orangepurple 3y ago
        Stay at home moms (SAHM)
orangepurple 3y ago
> Yet people with kids get divorced all the time anyway. This ruins the child
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  So does an unhappy marriage.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    The true answer is that a dysfunctional marriage negatively affects any children period. If the would-be parents can't reasonably guarantee a happy household going forward, having children is the epitome of irresponsiblity.
    - hiatus 3y ago
      > If the would-be parents can't reasonably guarantee a happy household going forward, having children is the epitome of irresponsiblity. Who can do this? Who can possibly guarantee anything about the future, especially when it involves other people?
      - Dalewyn 3y ago
        It should be reasonably possible to ascertain whether you and your spouse will have a pleasant or unpleasant future. If the latter, why the fuck (pun intended) would you have children?
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        Protracted job loss? Major illness? Death of a child? War? There are a lot of variables that go into the success of a marriage that can't be predicted, especially over a 20+ year timeframe. The idea that you can reliably predict if someone'll be happy in their marriage decades later is... unsupported.
- runarberg 3y ago
emodendroket 3y ago
I think having separate finances just changes the type of financial argument you’ll have.
- adam_arthur 3y ago
  Either you concretely agree on the finances or you don't. If you don't have any explicit understanding/agreement, the vast majority of relationships are going to have problems. Having separate accounts forces you to come to an explicit consensus
  - emodendroket 3y ago
    I don’t think the rigidity of a formal arrangement like this is necessary or even helpful. Both partners’ financial status is likely to change significantly over the course of a relationship.
    - adam_arthur 3y ago
      And if parameters change, the decisions around finances can change too. Your response implies that its unhealthy to speak openly and clearly about finances. It's much healthier to be concrete and open about how money is managed rather than having some vague understanding or not talking about it at all. If you have a clear understanding that you've both agreed on, then a joint account doesn't provide any benefit.
      - emodendroket 3y ago
        No, you’re just putting words in my mouth. I don’t think it’s unhealthy to discuss finances. I think formally delineating everything and having a change management process is excessive.
  - than3 3y ago
    The problem with 'consensus' as a whole is, its not always possible. Just because you do something doesn't mean you agree with it.
stickfigure 3y ago
> Why commingle finances at all? Because it's simple and easy? I trust my partner; she trusts me; we discuss expenses beyond some fuzzy threshold that we both seem to understand intuitively. The alternative seems to require spreadsheets. Who pays for the kid's daycare? Who pays what percentage of the mortgage, and what ownership stake does that represent? What if someone's income goes dramatically up, or dramatically down? It sounds exhausting.
- rgbgraph 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - nolroz 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - rgbgraph 3y ago
      [flagged]
- ozfive 3y ago
  Until your partner decides one day that they no longer are going to abide by that trust and find someone else, raid the joint account, the investments, and sell things right from under you which they are allowed to do with no repercussions due to the marriage according to the government and on top of it disappear with the children. Trust me from experience. You may think you know someone until they up and change on you overnight. Marriage is a sham in the U.S. which favors women in so many ways that men should seriously consider the true cost/benefit of even getting into that contract in the first place.
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    I am 50 and I have never met anyone who had this actually happen. I have seen messy divorces, but money was never stolen like that and the change was never overnight (everyone of their friends saw it coming, every time, usually since day one, but it’s pointless to warn people in love… and after that usually kids). Then again, I don’t live in the US; people here (or maybe it’s just my circle) are less pre occupied with money and lawsuits. Even the most messy divorces I know of from my friends didn’t need lawyers.
lotsofpulp 3y ago
> Why commingle finances at all? Because you have to in order to cohabitate? Just because two people do not use a joint account does not mean they both are not incurring shared expenses, i.e. commingling finances. Rent/mortgage/property tax/home insurance/food/energy/kids/etc.
xupybd 3y ago
> Why commingle finances at all? If you have children I'm not sure how you can avoid this. You have to share the care of the kids. One of you is going to take a hit in your earnings. Be that in extra sick days or for her the maternity leave. I don't think you can account for the work sharing evenly, so I don't think it's fair to try and account for the financial sharing.
than3 3y ago
> A large percentage of divorces are due to financial disagreements. That's putting it delicately. Quite a number of judges have straight out ruled that prenuptial agreements are not binding making this a free for all. The resulting judicial caused disaster often is what's catastrophic as opportunism shines through.
drekipus 3y ago
> joint accounts have proven to be a failed model at scale What does this even mean, how do you "at scale" something between two people? My wife and I have a joint account, all money goes in, things for the family come out of it, we get allowances out for our personal things. If one of us spends the money on our personal things without consulting the other, then that person values X over the family, QED. I think you might be implying that "family values have failed at scale" but that's a different, cultural thing, that is probably tied to a lot of different factors especially media. It's not that family values themselves are bad.
anonzzzies 3y ago
But now you are putting a price on the others time. Let’s say you make nothing yourself (starving artist, stay at home parent etc etc) and your cohabiting partner makes a few 100k, how do you decide what your time is worth vs your partner. Or your partner inherited a few million and does nothing but also feels they have to do nothing because they bring the money. When you separate, you might end up with nothing after 20 years just because you took care of the kids? I couldn’t live with someone in this robot/spreadsheet way. Been married 25 years with a joint account and no prenup; wouldn’t want it any other way. Life is too short to worry about things like this and personally I would find it a sign of mistrust so it wouldn’t work in the first place.
- Capricorn2481 3y ago
  I wouldn't want to marry someone I can't figure out money with. For me and my GF, I make more so I pay more, for the reason you listed. I don't find that to be a problem, and not everyone can make a tech salary
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    But you also ‘give’ her money because you make more (or all)? So when you break up, she doesn’t live on the street? Even if she is the one that does the breaking? If it’s not 50/50 as in married/no prenup, you are valuing her to some amount you made up (together?); even if it’s only x% of spending, that’s also a valuation. Is there a yearly inflation correction? Balance of power is firmly in the corner of the largest earner: cannot see how this is healthy.
    - shrimp_emoji 3y ago
      True! Another reason why we need a more egalitarian society. If all the high earners are men, relationships are gonna be doomed with financial asymmetry. I think that sucks. Unless you go the trad, Islamic route and say, "Yeah, this is my domestic slave." I think that sucks even more.
    - Capricorn2481 3y ago

orangepurple 3y ago

> Why commingle finances at all? Stay at home moms which take care of multiple children full time typically do not earn an income

emodendroket 3y ago
Even failing that I think you’d get into a lot of ticky-tack calculations about who pays for shoes or school supplies or whatever.
BobbyJo 3y ago
Then work out a way to divide income ahead of time rather than quibble after the fact? That's what me and my wife do.
- emodendroket 3y ago
  My wife and I have just had joint accounts forever and it’s worked out great for us. There must be more than anecdote to go with if we want to have this argument “rationally.” Though if I’m being honest, it has more to do with my ideal of what a committed relationship is about than rational considerations.
adam_arthur 3y ago
Then they have their own account that you transfer $X/month into. If you can't agree as a couple on what each person should be spending, then the relationship is on bad footing to begin with.
- emodendroket 3y ago
  I think this creates an uncomfortable/unequal situation for the non working partner as you’ve essentially set yourself up as an authority figure over them rather than an equal.
  - uninformed 3y ago
    Do you have an alternative in mind?
    - emodendroket 3y ago
      Joint accounts. Isn’t that the subject of discussion?
  - aaronblohowiak 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - emodendroket 3y ago
      I’m open to suggestions if you think a better term is on offer.
      - c22 3y ago
        I've heard "stay-at-home" used.
      - orangepurple 3y ago
        Stay at home moms (SAHM)

orangepurple 3y ago

> Yet people with kids get divorced all the time anyway. This ruins the child

ceejayoz 3y ago
So does an unhappy marriage.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  The true answer is that a dysfunctional marriage negatively affects any children period. If the would-be parents can't reasonably guarantee a happy household going forward, having children is the epitome of irresponsiblity.
  - hiatus 3y ago
    > If the would-be parents can't reasonably guarantee a happy household going forward, having children is the epitome of irresponsiblity. Who can do this? Who can possibly guarantee anything about the future, especially when it involves other people?
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      It should be reasonably possible to ascertain whether you and your spouse will have a pleasant or unpleasant future. If the latter, why the fuck (pun intended) would you have children?
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        Protracted job loss? Major illness? Death of a child? War? There are a lot of variables that go into the success of a marriage that can't be predicted, especially over a 20+ year timeframe. The idea that you can reliably predict if someone'll be happy in their marriage decades later is... unsupported.
runarberg 3y ago

emodendroket 3y ago

I think having separate finances just changes the type of financial argument you’ll have.

adam_arthur 3y ago
Either you concretely agree on the finances or you don't. If you don't have any explicit understanding/agreement, the vast majority of relationships are going to have problems. Having separate accounts forces you to come to an explicit consensus
- emodendroket 3y ago
  I don’t think the rigidity of a formal arrangement like this is necessary or even helpful. Both partners’ financial status is likely to change significantly over the course of a relationship.
  - adam_arthur 3y ago
    And if parameters change, the decisions around finances can change too. Your response implies that its unhealthy to speak openly and clearly about finances. It's much healthier to be concrete and open about how money is managed rather than having some vague understanding or not talking about it at all. If you have a clear understanding that you've both agreed on, then a joint account doesn't provide any benefit.
    - emodendroket 3y ago
      No, you’re just putting words in my mouth. I don’t think it’s unhealthy to discuss finances. I think formally delineating everything and having a change management process is excessive.
- than3 3y ago
  The problem with 'consensus' as a whole is, its not always possible. Just because you do something doesn't mean you agree with it.

stickfigure 3y ago

> Why commingle finances at all? Because it's simple and easy? I trust my partner; she trusts me; we discuss expenses beyond some fuzzy threshold that we both seem to understand intuitively. The alternative seems to require spreadsheets. Who pays for the kid's daycare? Who pays what percentage of the mortgage, and what ownership stake does that represent? What if someone's income goes dramatically up, or dramatically down? It sounds exhausting.

rgbgraph 3y ago
[flagged]
- nolroz 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - rgbgraph 3y ago
    [flagged]
ozfive 3y ago
Until your partner decides one day that they no longer are going to abide by that trust and find someone else, raid the joint account, the investments, and sell things right from under you which they are allowed to do with no repercussions due to the marriage according to the government and on top of it disappear with the children. Trust me from experience. You may think you know someone until they up and change on you overnight. Marriage is a sham in the U.S. which favors women in so many ways that men should seriously consider the true cost/benefit of even getting into that contract in the first place.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  I am 50 and I have never met anyone who had this actually happen. I have seen messy divorces, but money was never stolen like that and the change was never overnight (everyone of their friends saw it coming, every time, usually since day one, but it’s pointless to warn people in love… and after that usually kids). Then again, I don’t live in the US; people here (or maybe it’s just my circle) are less pre occupied with money and lawsuits. Even the most messy divorces I know of from my friends didn’t need lawyers.

lotsofpulp 3y ago

> Why commingle finances at all? Because you have to in order to cohabitate? Just because two people do not use a joint account does not mean they both are not incurring shared expenses, i.e. commingling finances. Rent/mortgage/property tax/home insurance/food/energy/kids/etc.

xupybd 3y ago

> Why commingle finances at all? If you have children I'm not sure how you can avoid this. You have to share the care of the kids. One of you is going to take a hit in your earnings. Be that in extra sick days or for her the maternity leave. I don't think you can account for the work sharing evenly, so I don't think it's fair to try and account for the financial sharing.

than3 3y ago

> A large percentage of divorces are due to financial disagreements. That's putting it delicately. Quite a number of judges have straight out ruled that prenuptial agreements are not binding making this a free for all. The resulting judicial caused disaster often is what's catastrophic as opportunism shines through.

drekipus 3y ago

> joint accounts have proven to be a failed model at scale What does this even mean, how do you "at scale" something between two people? My wife and I have a joint account, all money goes in, things for the family come out of it, we get allowances out for our personal things. If one of us spends the money on our personal things without consulting the other, then that person values X over the family, QED. I think you might be implying that "family values have failed at scale" but that's a different, cultural thing, that is probably tied to a lot of different factors especially media. It's not that family values themselves are bad.

anonzzzies 3y ago

But now you are putting a price on the others time. Let’s say you make nothing yourself (starving artist, stay at home parent etc etc) and your cohabiting partner makes a few 100k, how do you decide what your time is worth vs your partner. Or your partner inherited a few million and does nothing but also feels they have to do nothing because they bring the money. When you separate, you might end up with nothing after 20 years just because you took care of the kids? I couldn’t live with someone in this robot/spreadsheet way. Been married 25 years with a joint account and no prenup; wouldn’t want it any other way. Life is too short to worry about things like this and personally I would find it a sign of mistrust so it wouldn’t work in the first place.

Capricorn2481 3y ago
I wouldn't want to marry someone I can't figure out money with. For me and my GF, I make more so I pay more, for the reason you listed. I don't find that to be a problem, and not everyone can make a tech salary
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  But you also ‘give’ her money because you make more (or all)? So when you break up, she doesn’t live on the street? Even if she is the one that does the breaking? If it’s not 50/50 as in married/no prenup, you are valuing her to some amount you made up (together?); even if it’s only x% of spending, that’s also a valuation. Is there a yearly inflation correction? Balance of power is firmly in the corner of the largest earner: cannot see how this is healthy.
  - shrimp_emoji 3y ago
    True! Another reason why we need a more egalitarian society. If all the high earners are men, relationships are gonna be doomed with financial asymmetry. I think that sucks. Unless you go the trad, Islamic route and say, "Yeah, this is my domestic slave." I think that sucks even more.
  - Capricorn2481 3y ago