5 ms·

> de facto ban on those book Are you implying these books are so unpopular that a good chunk of their influence and profitability is very much dependent on lef

> de facto ban on those book Are you implying these books are so unpopular that a good chunk of their influence and profitability is very much dependent on left-wing public school librarians subsidizing them by making sure they are included in the catalogues? We should remember that a school library has limited space, so a decision is being made about what to include no matter what. If you think ideology/doctrine doesn't already play a role in these decisions, I invite you to check if the library of your local high school has a physical copy of say "When Harry Became Sally", "The Bell Curve", or even "The Blank Slate". In principle, my libertarian side would have agreed with you that imposing these choices in a centralized way is not a good idea. But those principles are only meaningful in a classical liberal context. Not when scourges of affirmative action, indoctrination, ideological subsidies [1] and pseudo-liberal bureaucratic processes are used to impose ludicrous ideas upon us. [1]: For examples of that, see https://dc.claremont.org/federal-progressive-subsidy-database/ https://dc.claremont.org/federal-progressive-subsidy-databas...

woodruffw 3y ago
> Are you implying these books are so unpopular that a good chunk of their influence and profitability is very much dependent on left-wing public school librarians subsidizing them by making sure they are included in the catalogues? No; please don't editorialize. It's obvious that the goal of these bans is to ensure that children and young adults who otherwise wouldn't have access to these books continue to not have access. > I invite you to check if the library of your local high school has a physical copy of say "When Harry Became Sally", "The Bell Curve", or even "The Blank Slate" It has two of the three[1][2]. You need to reevaluate your assumptions here. (And note: I grew up in a district where students simultaneously have access to one of the largest public library systems in the world, by default. I'm positive I could find all three additionally in that system.) [1]: https://search.follettsoftware.com/metasearch/ui/113378/search/all?q=The%20Bell%20Curve&ists=0&activeMenu=HOME https://search.follettsoftware.com/metasearch/ui/113378/sear... [2]: https://search.follettsoftware.com/metasearch/ui/113378/search/all?q=The%20Blank%20Slate&ists=0&activeMenu=HOME https://search.follettsoftware.com/metasearch/ui/113378/sear...
- mutant_glofish 3y ago
  > No; please don't editorialize. It's obvious that the goal of these bans is to ensure that children and young adults who otherwise wouldn't have access to these books continue to not have access. I agree that the main goal is to reduce the access of children and young adults to these book, compared to the status quo. I don't think anyone is disputing that, one of the common rationales given being that these books are "inappropriate" for them. However, framing this as a de facto book ban is definitely "editorializing". > It has two of the three[1][2]. You need to reevaluate your assumptions here. Touché. That isn't the typical high school though. It seems like a very good one, with competitive merit-based admission, and eight Nobel Prize-winning alumni. [1] Even then, you can see the biases of the high school librarians if you take a look at the collections page [2]: "LGBTQIA+", "BIPOC Reading List", "Grade 1: Inclusion contributes to a community’s diversity", "Indigenous Math & Science Collection", "Diverse Voices", etc. Do you disagree that these are topics favored by left-wingers? Do they have collections promoting "Nuclear Energy", "Classics", "Freedom", "Family Values", "Meritocracy", or even "Personal Responsibility"? > I grew up in a district where students simultaneously have access to one of the largest public library systems. Good for them. I very much support that. Although there are significant biases in the procurement process for the public libraries, I assume their situation is probably much better than public school libraries. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bronx_High_School_of_Science&oldid=1154948020 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bronx_High_School... [2] https://collections.follettsoftware.com/collections/public https://collections.follettsoftware.com/collections/public
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    > Framing this as a de facto book ban is definitely "editorializing" though. I don't know what else you'd call the use of state authority to restrict access to books, without painful euphemisms. And note: the use of "book ban" to describe partisan curtailments of reading materials is not itself partisan[1]. You can find similar uses of the phrase in any partisan or non-partisan news source. > Do you disagree that these are topics favored by left-wingers? Do they have collections promoting "Nuclear Energy", "Classics", "Freedom", "Family Values", "Meritocracy", or even "Personal Responsibility"? There was a classics topic in our library. I think it would behoove you to think one step beyond this and observe that topical selections in libraries reflect three pressures: 1. What the audience (i.e., students in this case) actually wants to read; 2. What the librarian thinks will induce reading among the audience; 3. The librarian's own biases. You're focusing on (3), when the reality is that (1) and (2) matter more. Asking high schoolers to get excited about a library section on "personal responsibility" or "meritocracy" sounds like a bad joke. [1]: https://www.foxnews.com/us/library-book-bans-united-states-schools-appear-target-lgbtq-themed-books-residents-say https://www.foxnews.com/us/library-book-bans-united-states-s...
HideousKojima 3y ago
>If you think ideology/doctrine doesn't already play a role in these decisions, I invite you to check if the library of your local high school has a physical copy of say "When Harry Became Sally", "The Bell Curve", or even "The Blank Slate". Or "The Turner Diaries" or "The Camp of the Saints" if you want some more extreme examples.

woodruffw 3y ago

> Are you implying these books are so unpopular that a good chunk of their influence and profitability is very much dependent on left-wing public school librarians subsidizing them by making sure they are included in the catalogues? No; please don't editorialize. It's obvious that the goal of these bans is to ensure that children and young adults who otherwise wouldn't have access to these books continue to not have access. > I invite you to check if the library of your local high school has a physical copy of say "When Harry Became Sally", "The Bell Curve", or even "The Blank Slate" It has two of the three[1][2]. You need to reevaluate your assumptions here. (And note: I grew up in a district where students simultaneously have access to one of the largest public library systems in the world, by default. I'm positive I could find all three additionally in that system.) [1]: https://search.follettsoftware.com/metasearch/ui/113378/search/all?q=The%20Bell%20Curve&ists=0&activeMenu=HOME https://search.follettsoftware.com/metasearch/ui/113378/sear... [2]: https://search.follettsoftware.com/metasearch/ui/113378/search/all?q=The%20Blank%20Slate&ists=0&activeMenu=HOME https://search.follettsoftware.com/metasearch/ui/113378/sear...

mutant_glofish 3y ago
> No; please don't editorialize. It's obvious that the goal of these bans is to ensure that children and young adults who otherwise wouldn't have access to these books continue to not have access. I agree that the main goal is to reduce the access of children and young adults to these book, compared to the status quo. I don't think anyone is disputing that, one of the common rationales given being that these books are "inappropriate" for them. However, framing this as a de facto book ban is definitely "editorializing". > It has two of the three[1][2]. You need to reevaluate your assumptions here. Touché. That isn't the typical high school though. It seems like a very good one, with competitive merit-based admission, and eight Nobel Prize-winning alumni. [1] Even then, you can see the biases of the high school librarians if you take a look at the collections page [2]: "LGBTQIA+", "BIPOC Reading List", "Grade 1: Inclusion contributes to a community’s diversity", "Indigenous Math & Science Collection", "Diverse Voices", etc. Do you disagree that these are topics favored by left-wingers? Do they have collections promoting "Nuclear Energy", "Classics", "Freedom", "Family Values", "Meritocracy", or even "Personal Responsibility"? > I grew up in a district where students simultaneously have access to one of the largest public library systems. Good for them. I very much support that. Although there are significant biases in the procurement process for the public libraries, I assume their situation is probably much better than public school libraries. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bronx_High_School_of_Science&oldid=1154948020 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bronx_High_School... [2] https://collections.follettsoftware.com/collections/public https://collections.follettsoftware.com/collections/public
- woodruffw 3y ago
  > Framing this as a de facto book ban is definitely "editorializing" though. I don't know what else you'd call the use of state authority to restrict access to books, without painful euphemisms. And note: the use of "book ban" to describe partisan curtailments of reading materials is not itself partisan[1]. You can find similar uses of the phrase in any partisan or non-partisan news source. > Do you disagree that these are topics favored by left-wingers? Do they have collections promoting "Nuclear Energy", "Classics", "Freedom", "Family Values", "Meritocracy", or even "Personal Responsibility"? There was a classics topic in our library. I think it would behoove you to think one step beyond this and observe that topical selections in libraries reflect three pressures: 1. What the audience (i.e., students in this case) actually wants to read; 2. What the librarian thinks will induce reading among the audience; 3. The librarian's own biases. You're focusing on (3), when the reality is that (1) and (2) matter more. Asking high schoolers to get excited about a library section on "personal responsibility" or "meritocracy" sounds like a bad joke. [1]: https://www.foxnews.com/us/library-book-bans-united-states-schools-appear-target-lgbtq-themed-books-residents-say https://www.foxnews.com/us/library-book-bans-united-states-s...

HideousKojima 3y ago

>If you think ideology/doctrine doesn't already play a role in these decisions, I invite you to check if the library of your local high school has a physical copy of say "When Harry Became Sally", "The Bell Curve", or even "The Blank Slate". Or "The Turner Diaries" or "The Camp of the Saints" if you want some more extreme examples.