4 ms·

It's entertainment and you pay for it in losses. That's the deal you make with the owners of the casino when you enter the game. If you try to profit off it by

It's entertainment and you pay for it in losses. That's the deal you make with the owners of the casino when you enter the game. If you try to profit off it by cheating, you are failing to comply to your part of the deal. You don't have to accept the deal if you don't like it, just don't go there. If a company doesn't allow you to test their security, just let it go.

girvo 3y ago
Right! But explain to me how what you've described should equal criminal charges?
- tesdinger 3y ago
  Not following the games rules to gain a monetary advantage is criminal. If the casinos owner would do the same while dealing cards, you would be saying the same.
- zdragnar 3y ago
  Fraud, probably. The rules of the game require the dice to tumble.
  - kelnos 3y ago
    There's a simple remedy, though, for people who don't want to follow the rules: ejecting them from the game or the casino. Casinos do that all the time. And consider the usual case at a normal "manual" craps table: if someone tried to slide the dice, or throw them in a way that wasn't allowed, there are three (and sometimes four) casino employees around the table who will quickly call "no roll" and tell the shooter what they did wrong, and have them go again. If they keep doing it, they'll get kicked out. No need to involve law enforcement here. But once we talk about an "automatic" craps table -- which exists mainly to cut down on labor costs to the casino -- now they're pissed that they failed to enforce the rules properly, and have -- through their clout and government legal capture -- turned that into criminal charges against the people who slid by.
readme 3y ago
If you posted this message on the door of a casino, I imagine not many people would go inside. What people think is: "I could be rich and never have to work again."
- tesdinger 3y ago
  [flagged]
- moonchild 3y ago
  If you hire a prostitute, they obviously aren't going to emphasise the fact that they wouldn't be there if you hadn't paid them. Part of what you're paying for is the fantasy. And sure, some people will be taken in by it. I've no doubt some people have fallen in love with prostitutes. Is that an indictment of the business model (both of casinos and prostitutes)? I'm not sure, but it does mean I don't find it problematic that casinos don't post their business model on the door. I think that, if the existence of casinos which don't emphasise their business model is problematic, then the stronger argument is the one which holds that it is better to not have casinos at all.
grugagag 3y ago
The same argument could be applied to loan sharks, “ if you don’t like it, don’t get the loan” and yet this is illegal because it’s predatory behavior and I agree should be illegal.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- refurb 3y ago
  No, it would be the same argument as payday loans - the government regulates the terms, and if they aren't to your liking don't get a loan from them
- bluecalm 3y ago
  Yeah but we are not discussing if it should be legal to offer gambling games but if casinos deserve protection from people trying to abuse the offered deal. I think offering gambling games as a business should be illegal but as long as it's legal the casinos deserve the same protection from people trying to abuse contracts as everyone else.
caddemon 3y ago
Do you consider card counting cheating? Seeing gambling as paid entertainment is certainly the healthier attitude for the vast majority of people, but at the same time it's not like everyone who is able to make a consistent profit gambling is automatically a cheater. The casino needs to win in aggregate but that doesn't mean every individual is entering some unspoken contract to lose money in expectation (depending on the game anyway). They're agreeing to the rules of the game.
- kelnos 3y ago
  > They're agreeing to the rules of the game. I know I've been arguing the opposite in other comments, but in this case they apparently didn't actually agree to the rules of the game, and yet they chose to play anyway: the rules do state that sliding isn't allowed, and that the dice have to tumble in a certain way for it to be considered a valid roll. Regardless, though, I think it's the casino's responsibility to ensure rules like that are followed, and if they fail to do so (due to cost-cutting measures like having software run a craps table), that's on them.

girvo 3y ago

Right! But explain to me how what you've described should equal criminal charges?

tesdinger 3y ago
Not following the games rules to gain a monetary advantage is criminal. If the casinos owner would do the same while dealing cards, you would be saying the same.
zdragnar 3y ago
Fraud, probably. The rules of the game require the dice to tumble.
- kelnos 3y ago
  There's a simple remedy, though, for people who don't want to follow the rules: ejecting them from the game or the casino. Casinos do that all the time. And consider the usual case at a normal "manual" craps table: if someone tried to slide the dice, or throw them in a way that wasn't allowed, there are three (and sometimes four) casino employees around the table who will quickly call "no roll" and tell the shooter what they did wrong, and have them go again. If they keep doing it, they'll get kicked out. No need to involve law enforcement here. But once we talk about an "automatic" craps table -- which exists mainly to cut down on labor costs to the casino -- now they're pissed that they failed to enforce the rules properly, and have -- through their clout and government legal capture -- turned that into criminal charges against the people who slid by.

readme 3y ago

If you posted this message on the door of a casino, I imagine not many people would go inside. What people think is: "I could be rich and never have to work again."

tesdinger 3y ago
[flagged]
moonchild 3y ago
If you hire a prostitute, they obviously aren't going to emphasise the fact that they wouldn't be there if you hadn't paid them. Part of what you're paying for is the fantasy. And sure, some people will be taken in by it. I've no doubt some people have fallen in love with prostitutes. Is that an indictment of the business model (both of casinos and prostitutes)? I'm not sure, but it does mean I don't find it problematic that casinos don't post their business model on the door. I think that, if the existence of casinos which don't emphasise their business model is problematic, then the stronger argument is the one which holds that it is better to not have casinos at all.

grugagag 3y ago

The same argument could be applied to loan sharks, “ if you don’t like it, don’t get the loan” and yet this is illegal because it’s predatory behavior and I agree should be illegal.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
refurb 3y ago
No, it would be the same argument as payday loans - the government regulates the terms, and if they aren't to your liking don't get a loan from them
bluecalm 3y ago
Yeah but we are not discussing if it should be legal to offer gambling games but if casinos deserve protection from people trying to abuse the offered deal. I think offering gambling games as a business should be illegal but as long as it's legal the casinos deserve the same protection from people trying to abuse contracts as everyone else.

caddemon 3y ago

Do you consider card counting cheating? Seeing gambling as paid entertainment is certainly the healthier attitude for the vast majority of people, but at the same time it's not like everyone who is able to make a consistent profit gambling is automatically a cheater. The casino needs to win in aggregate but that doesn't mean every individual is entering some unspoken contract to lose money in expectation (depending on the game anyway). They're agreeing to the rules of the game.

kelnos 3y ago
> They're agreeing to the rules of the game. I know I've been arguing the opposite in other comments, but in this case they apparently didn't actually agree to the rules of the game, and yet they chose to play anyway: the rules do state that sliding isn't allowed, and that the dice have to tumble in a certain way for it to be considered a valid roll. Regardless, though, I think it's the casino's responsibility to ensure rules like that are followed, and if they fail to do so (due to cost-cutting measures like having software run a craps table), that's on them.