4 ms·

That really doesn't make sense to me. If your margins are thin then you presumably live on service and repeat business. There's almost certainly a broader exp

That really doesn't make sense to me. If your margins are thin then you presumably live on service and repeat business. There's almost certainly a broader explanation for this outcome then "it's not perceived to actually matter."

b112 3y ago
I wonder, Government grants to setup chargers? Or something like that, where there mere existence means money?
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  Legal compliance. The Dieselgate settlement for Volkswagen in the United States required them to set up a non-VW branded charging network. If you want something done with gritted teeth, get it done via lawsuit.
fragmede 3y ago
What do you service though ? EV's are so ridiculously simple compared to a modern ICE car. Timing belts, PCV valve, and O2 sensors; oh my! All that is gone. there's some trickiness to regenerative braking but that's simple in comparison. There's still tires and glass and bodyword to deal with and repair, but just such a huge chunk of auto maintenance just disappears on EVs it's not even funny. Never have to take your car in for an oil service again. There is the new situation of maintenance on the battery pack, and that's a good chunk of change for the labor on it, but that's still relatively rare compared to troubles on an ICE.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  I think GP meant customer service not mechanical service. Very few gasoline stations have a mechanic on duty anymore. And you overstate the mechanical maintenance needs of a modern gasoline car. Yes they need oil changes, which are quick and fairly inexpensive. For the most part they will go 100k miles if not more with little else but brakes and tires (which EVs need also). PCV valves and O2 sensors are stupidly simple devices, especially in comparison to the electronic and computer systems needed to make an EV work.
- cptskippy 3y ago
  Nissan lost my loyalty with the Leaf over this. They have a maintenance schedule on the 2015 Leaf that has you visiting the dealer for inspection just to maintain the battery warranty. This is just a concession to dealers to give them an opportunity to badger you with unnecessary services. I bought my Leaf used and paid $350 the first time I took it for battery inspection just to mollify my own anxiety about the unknown condition of fluids in the vehicle. Every damn time I have visited since the service manager walks out with a rag covered in dirty fluid telling me I need to change my reduction gear oil or brake fluid. I pointed out that they did it previously and cited the maintenance schedule for those fluids. Then asked what the problem was that was causing the rapid degradation of the fluid. They go "talk to the tech" then return and say it was a misunderstanding and I am ready to go. If ole Musky wasn't such a piece of work, the fact that Tesla doesn't pull this BS would earn my loyalty.
- MrFoof 3y ago
  Assuming you actually treat your car like a durable good, and not replace it every few years and get demolished by depreciation? * Tires * In-cabin air filter * Windshield wiper blades * Windshield washer fluid * Brake fluid. It's hypergolic, after all * Suspension realignment * Suspension bushings * Tie rod ends * 12V AGM battery for non-powertrain systems * Brake pads, though regenerative braking heavily reduces wear * Rainwater drainage channels need to be cleared * Air conditioner compressor * Struts * Wheel bearings * Battery pack coolant. Eventually it will need replacement * Battery pack coolant pump. Eventually it will need replacement * Powertrain battery back Over long enough timelines... * Any rubber seals. Door seals, window seals. Frunk/trunk seals. Rubber oxidizes and degrades to UV over time * Speakers * Brake caliper rebuild. * Brake master cylinder rebuild. * Parking brake related items (modern electric ones just push out a cam against the brake rotor) * Window regulators * HVAC blend door actuators * Soft-close door/trunk actuators * Power seat motors * Power mirror motors * Seat foam and upholstery * Door hinges. Eventually they won't stay open at a set position anymore. * Auto-dimming mirrors * Any backlit display -- ----- Even eventually an electric motor may need re-balancing or servicing, but the timelines are very long. Powertrain costs are vastly reduced to internal combustion engine cars, but over a long enough timeline, all the other mechanical stuff needs replacing. Thermal cycling, oxidation, UV exposure, compression and friction affects everything eventually. Some things people vastly underestimate as well. OEM-grade (not cheap aftermarket junk) door and window seals are NOT cheap to replace, and eventually the OEM ones may be entirely unavailable outside of collector grade cars. Even on VERY normal cars like a Toyota Camry you can spend $1500+ replacing door and trunk seals with OEM replacements.
  - ThenAsNow 3y ago
    > * Brake fluid. It's hypergolic, after all You probably meant "hygroscopic" here. One probably doesn't want to be carrying hypergols in their car!
    - MrFoof 3y ago
      I did, but wow. Imagine if brake fluid was hypergolic?! Think of the periodic "exciting" news stories there would be from time to time!
toomuchtodo 3y ago
With EVs, you must make your margin at sale of each unit. There is no profit to be made elsewhere (service, fast charging, etc). In 100k miles of driving my Model S, besides a small amount of warranty work, it has only had tires, wiper blades, and washer fluid, no other service. Lots of Supercharging as well, but Tesla isn’t making a material margin on that. Hence, why the dealership model dies (typically sustained by service revenue) and the fast charger network runs on razor thin margins or at cost as a quasi utility coop across automakers (with Tesla being the steward).
- MBCook 3y ago
  Plus most people will charge at home (if at all possible) so you can’t even rely on the superchargers as a big ongoing revenue stream. It’s not like if GM had GM only gas stations their cars had to go to. It’s perfectly possible for a Tesla owner to go years without supercharging if they’re not road-tripping.

b112 3y ago

I wonder, Government grants to setup chargers? Or something like that, where there mere existence means money?

bobthepanda 3y ago
Legal compliance. The Dieselgate settlement for Volkswagen in the United States required them to set up a non-VW branded charging network. If you want something done with gritted teeth, get it done via lawsuit.

fragmede 3y ago

What do you service though ? EV's are so ridiculously simple compared to a modern ICE car. Timing belts, PCV valve, and O2 sensors; oh my! All that is gone. there's some trickiness to regenerative braking but that's simple in comparison. There's still tires and glass and bodyword to deal with and repair, but just such a huge chunk of auto maintenance just disappears on EVs it's not even funny. Never have to take your car in for an oil service again. There is the new situation of maintenance on the battery pack, and that's a good chunk of change for the labor on it, but that's still relatively rare compared to troubles on an ICE.

SoftTalker 3y ago
I think GP meant customer service not mechanical service. Very few gasoline stations have a mechanic on duty anymore. And you overstate the mechanical maintenance needs of a modern gasoline car. Yes they need oil changes, which are quick and fairly inexpensive. For the most part they will go 100k miles if not more with little else but brakes and tires (which EVs need also). PCV valves and O2 sensors are stupidly simple devices, especially in comparison to the electronic and computer systems needed to make an EV work.
cptskippy 3y ago
Nissan lost my loyalty with the Leaf over this. They have a maintenance schedule on the 2015 Leaf that has you visiting the dealer for inspection just to maintain the battery warranty. This is just a concession to dealers to give them an opportunity to badger you with unnecessary services. I bought my Leaf used and paid $350 the first time I took it for battery inspection just to mollify my own anxiety about the unknown condition of fluids in the vehicle. Every damn time I have visited since the service manager walks out with a rag covered in dirty fluid telling me I need to change my reduction gear oil or brake fluid. I pointed out that they did it previously and cited the maintenance schedule for those fluids. Then asked what the problem was that was causing the rapid degradation of the fluid. They go "talk to the tech" then return and say it was a misunderstanding and I am ready to go. If ole Musky wasn't such a piece of work, the fact that Tesla doesn't pull this BS would earn my loyalty.
MrFoof 3y ago
Assuming you actually treat your car like a durable good, and not replace it every few years and get demolished by depreciation? * Tires * In-cabin air filter * Windshield wiper blades * Windshield washer fluid * Brake fluid. It's hypergolic, after all * Suspension realignment * Suspension bushings * Tie rod ends * 12V AGM battery for non-powertrain systems * Brake pads, though regenerative braking heavily reduces wear * Rainwater drainage channels need to be cleared * Air conditioner compressor * Struts * Wheel bearings * Battery pack coolant. Eventually it will need replacement * Battery pack coolant pump. Eventually it will need replacement * Powertrain battery back Over long enough timelines... * Any rubber seals. Door seals, window seals. Frunk/trunk seals. Rubber oxidizes and degrades to UV over time * Speakers * Brake caliper rebuild. * Brake master cylinder rebuild. * Parking brake related items (modern electric ones just push out a cam against the brake rotor) * Window regulators * HVAC blend door actuators * Soft-close door/trunk actuators * Power seat motors * Power mirror motors * Seat foam and upholstery * Door hinges. Eventually they won't stay open at a set position anymore. * Auto-dimming mirrors * Any backlit display -- ----- Even eventually an electric motor may need re-balancing or servicing, but the timelines are very long. Powertrain costs are vastly reduced to internal combustion engine cars, but over a long enough timeline, all the other mechanical stuff needs replacing. Thermal cycling, oxidation, UV exposure, compression and friction affects everything eventually. Some things people vastly underestimate as well. OEM-grade (not cheap aftermarket junk) door and window seals are NOT cheap to replace, and eventually the OEM ones may be entirely unavailable outside of collector grade cars. Even on VERY normal cars like a Toyota Camry you can spend $1500+ replacing door and trunk seals with OEM replacements.
- ThenAsNow 3y ago
  > * Brake fluid. It's hypergolic, after all You probably meant "hygroscopic" here. One probably doesn't want to be carrying hypergols in their car!
  - MrFoof 3y ago
    I did, but wow. Imagine if brake fluid was hypergolic?! Think of the periodic "exciting" news stories there would be from time to time!

toomuchtodo 3y ago

With EVs, you must make your margin at sale of each unit. There is no profit to be made elsewhere (service, fast charging, etc). In 100k miles of driving my Model S, besides a small amount of warranty work, it has only had tires, wiper blades, and washer fluid, no other service. Lots of Supercharging as well, but Tesla isn’t making a material margin on that. Hence, why the dealership model dies (typically sustained by service revenue) and the fast charger network runs on razor thin margins or at cost as a quasi utility coop across automakers (with Tesla being the steward).

MBCook 3y ago
Plus most people will charge at home (if at all possible) so you can’t even rely on the superchargers as a big ongoing revenue stream. It’s not like if GM had GM only gas stations their cars had to go to. It’s perfectly possible for a Tesla owner to go years without supercharging if they’re not road-tripping.