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The high-level criticism, which is that Gemini's specification is too loose and vague, seems very, very convincing, even if the specifics aren't. In a subtle w

The high-level criticism, which is that Gemini's specification is too loose and vague, seems very, very convincing, even if the specifics aren't. In a subtle way, this is a significant hurdle for any competitors to the HTTP world. They have to overcome 30 years of technical debate and refinement as ambiguities have been hammered down.

Apreche 3y ago
I agree. I think a lot of the problem can be solved with discipline rather than a new spec entirely. If HTTP offers features that are offensive or unwanted, simply don't use those features. Make an HTTP server and client that only implement a subset of HTTP. Then use a subset of HTML, or another content type entirely. This means anyone still using a popular browser like Chrome can visit your sites, but people using a more limited client can as well. It also means you still get to lean on the 30 years of technical refinement rather than reinventing many wheels.
- solarkraft 3y ago
  Some people hate what has become of the current thing so much that they want to throw all of it away. This is that. The goal would be entirely achievable using your suggestion, but then you can't make something "simple" and "elegant". Of course don't take my cynicism to mean that people shouldn't invent new things - they totally should, that's how we move forward. Mess around all you like. I just don't see it catching on. But I think that's not really the goal anyway.
  - krapp 3y ago
    Gemini makes sense when you realize it's the protocol equivalent of running off to join an anarcho-primitivist commune or ascetic monastery, a technical solution to an emotional problem (disgust with the web and modern capitalist society.) It being too basic and rigid to the point of hostility towards anything but pure text is the entire point.
    - teruakohatu 3y ago
      > anarcho-primitivist commune or ascetic monastery Even monks liked some illustrations (illumination) in their manuscripts. Gemini is closer to babylonian clay tablets delivered over TCP.
- ertian 3y ago
  > This means anyone still using a popular browser like Chrome can visit your sites I think this would be seen as more of a drawback than a feature. If you're trying to build a tight-knit little hobbyist community, random people popping in and complaining that "these pages are boring, where are all the images?!" isn't helpful.
  - giantrobot 3y ago
    Gemini doesn't support POST so no one can possibly pop in to say anything.
    - halicarnassus 3y ago
      Given that there are microblogging (gemini://station.martinrue.com/), reddit with optional git connection to allow for issue tracking (gemini://geminispace.org/), it seems you're wrong.
    - ertian 3y ago
      Well...exactly. Working as designed.
- josefx 3y ago
  > If HTTP offers features that are offensive or unwanted, simply don't use those features. Make an HTTP server and client that only implement a subset of HTTP. Just make sure it never ends up in a security critical context. Various larger companies already got screwed over when their front end code did not detect the size of a http message the exact same way their backed code did.
- tanakian 3y ago
  >Make an HTTP server and client that only implement a subset of HTTP. Then use a subset of HTML which subset? the older html/http versions are older versions, not a subset of the modern html/http. afaik modern html/http doesn't have subsets. >using a popular browser like Chrome Gemini is created so that anyone would be able to write a Gemini browser in a couple of days. Or server. I don't want "popular HTML browser" because I won't be able to write something like it in whole life.
carapace 3y ago
Gemini isn't a competitor to HTML, it's an alternative.
- ilyt 3y ago
  Alternative would need to fill similar function, while it can't even embed an image or put a table.
  - stonogo 3y ago
    That's not what alternative means. A passenger train is an alternative to a bus, but you can't drive a train on a freeway. "Alternative" in no way implies "feature parity". Getting addicted to meth and dying in a shootout with the police is an alternative to completing a medical degree and retiring to the Poconos, but they do not fill similar functions.
    - ilyt 3y ago
      I mean if you want to use that as an example it would be like taking a bus or walking 50km to the next town...
      - saghm 3y ago
        To be fair, I think it's pretty reasonable to say that walking 50 km isn't competition to taking a bus, but just an alternative. To be competition, it would have to be a _good_ alternative...
  - carapace 3y ago
    Hacker News can't even embed an image or put a table, yet here you are? Anyway... _________________ / /| / / | / Table / | / / | /________________/ /|| | __________ | / || | | | || | | | || | | | || | | | || | | |_|/ | | |_|/ | | | | | | |__|/ |__|/

Apreche 3y ago

I agree. I think a lot of the problem can be solved with discipline rather than a new spec entirely. If HTTP offers features that are offensive or unwanted, simply don't use those features. Make an HTTP server and client that only implement a subset of HTTP. Then use a subset of HTML, or another content type entirely. This means anyone still using a popular browser like Chrome can visit your sites, but people using a more limited client can as well. It also means you still get to lean on the 30 years of technical refinement rather than reinventing many wheels.

solarkraft 3y ago
Some people hate what has become of the current thing so much that they want to throw all of it away. This is that. The goal would be entirely achievable using your suggestion, but then you can't make something "simple" and "elegant". Of course don't take my cynicism to mean that people shouldn't invent new things - they totally should, that's how we move forward. Mess around all you like. I just don't see it catching on. But I think that's not really the goal anyway.
- krapp 3y ago
  Gemini makes sense when you realize it's the protocol equivalent of running off to join an anarcho-primitivist commune or ascetic monastery, a technical solution to an emotional problem (disgust with the web and modern capitalist society.) It being too basic and rigid to the point of hostility towards anything but pure text is the entire point.
  - teruakohatu 3y ago
    > anarcho-primitivist commune or ascetic monastery Even monks liked some illustrations (illumination) in their manuscripts. Gemini is closer to babylonian clay tablets delivered over TCP.
ertian 3y ago
> This means anyone still using a popular browser like Chrome can visit your sites I think this would be seen as more of a drawback than a feature. If you're trying to build a tight-knit little hobbyist community, random people popping in and complaining that "these pages are boring, where are all the images?!" isn't helpful.
- giantrobot 3y ago
  Gemini doesn't support POST so no one can possibly pop in to say anything.
  - halicarnassus 3y ago
    Given that there are microblogging (gemini://station.martinrue.com/), reddit with optional git connection to allow for issue tracking (gemini://geminispace.org/), it seems you're wrong.
  - ertian 3y ago
    Well...exactly. Working as designed.
josefx 3y ago
> If HTTP offers features that are offensive or unwanted, simply don't use those features. Make an HTTP server and client that only implement a subset of HTTP. Just make sure it never ends up in a security critical context. Various larger companies already got screwed over when their front end code did not detect the size of a http message the exact same way their backed code did.
tanakian 3y ago
>Make an HTTP server and client that only implement a subset of HTTP. Then use a subset of HTML which subset? the older html/http versions are older versions, not a subset of the modern html/http. afaik modern html/http doesn't have subsets. >using a popular browser like Chrome Gemini is created so that anyone would be able to write a Gemini browser in a couple of days. Or server. I don't want "popular HTML browser" because I won't be able to write something like it in whole life.

carapace 3y ago

Gemini isn't a competitor to HTML, it's an alternative.

ilyt 3y ago
Alternative would need to fill similar function, while it can't even embed an image or put a table.
- stonogo 3y ago
  That's not what alternative means. A passenger train is an alternative to a bus, but you can't drive a train on a freeway. "Alternative" in no way implies "feature parity". Getting addicted to meth and dying in a shootout with the police is an alternative to completing a medical degree and retiring to the Poconos, but they do not fill similar functions.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    I mean if you want to use that as an example it would be like taking a bus or walking 50km to the next town...
    - saghm 3y ago
      To be fair, I think it's pretty reasonable to say that walking 50 km isn't competition to taking a bus, but just an alternative. To be competition, it would have to be a _good_ alternative...
- carapace 3y ago
  Hacker News can't even embed an image or put a table, yet here you are? Anyway... _________________ / /| / / | / Table / | / / | /________________/ /|| | __________ | / || | | | || | | | || | | | || | | | || | | |_|/ | | |_|/ | | | | | | |__|/ |__|/