6 ms·

There are non-tech companies that give stock options and bonuses to software people. Many in those stodgy/established areas you mention.

by tyingq 3y ago

scarface_74 3y ago
Stock options are basically worth $0 statistically. But the fact remains that if you look at compensation at most companies outside of the major tech companies, these numbers look realistic. As an anecdote, I use to live in Atlanta and every time I looked for a job, Delta airlines came on my radar. https://www.levels.fyi/companies/delta-air-lines/salaries https://www.levels.fyi/companies/delta-air-lines/salaries This is accurate and in the same range other companies in Atlanta pay like Home Depot, Coke, etc.
- georgeecollins 3y ago
  I think what you mean to say is that the modal payout of stock options is $0, which could be true (source?). But even something that could typically return 0 is valuable to own.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    It’s a well known statistic that only one out of ten startups “succeed” and by “success” it just means investors got their money back. It doesn’t mean that employees got anything meaningful. https://www.failory.com/blog/startup-failure-rate https://www.failory.com/blog/startup-failure-rate Stock options are also mostly illiquid and you don’t know the value of what you’re holding. My RSUs in a public company are vested every six months. I know the potential value of those options just by looking at my spreadsheet and I can see the value updated almost real time (the GoogleFinance function). How long have Stripe employees been waiting on their company to go public?
    - hgsgm 3y ago
      Do you you think most employees are at brand new startups, or at larger near-liquidity companies?
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        How is that “near liquidity” working out for Stripe employees? And a lot of companies thought they were “near liquidity” until the bottom fell out of the IPO market and the public got wise to thought that it might not be a good idea to invest in a money losing company where all of the upside had already been captured by the private investors. And then the other out use to be getting acquired. But that’s not happening as much now because of the combination of high interest rates and more aggressive anti trust enforcement (I’m not saying whether that is good or bad). Every startup I’ve ever spoken to has promised that they are near an exit. But when I was on the corp dev side of compensation, I valued that at $0 and made sure I was at market - which wasn’t hard as a journeyman CRUD developer living in metro Atlanta. Now that I’m on the other side and have BigTech on my resume (cloud consulting department), startups are always trying to pull me in as an “architect” and occasionally a “CTO” (really just an overinflated title) and dangling “equity” at me. I would much rather have RSUs deposited in my brokerage account every six months.
    - georgeecollins 3y ago
      Yeah but again, if you have those options that usually are worthless, I will still buy them off of you because I understand that something that has a lifetime value between 0 and X is not valued at 0. Anecdotally, I have worked at companies that had ESOPs (does anyone do that anymore?), options in public companies, stock in a private start up and RSUs. Often they were worthless but at the end of the day they were also worth more than all the salary I got. You can't assume an option will be worth anything, but I think you should take them.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        But I could basically assume that my four year initial stock grant would be worth something when they vested and I knew I could sell them on the day they vested and diversify. The longer you work at a private company with illiquid “equity”, the less diversified you are, waiting, hoping and praying that an exit event would happen and you aren’t able to sell when you need cash.
- tyingq 3y ago
  >Stock options are basically worth $0 statistically. Just saying I personally know developers at companies very similar to the ones you're listing that get stock options. While nobody is getting rich, they do exercise them when they vest, for non-trivial amounts. Bonuses are common as well.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    Are we talking about the same thing? Stock options - private companies that give you options that aren’t liquid (usually) until an exit event at sone undefined time. RSUs - a known amount of stock granted in a public company with a known vesting date. I know people at those companies and they aren’t getting paid nearly as much at the senior level as even a mid level software engineer at one of the larger tech companies. I have been on both sides and spent most of my time as an enterprise dev.
    - tyingq 3y ago
      I'm talking about RSUs, yes...apologies. I'm not saying they are getting FAANG level money. I'm saying that they often only report their base salary to sites like glassdoor/salary.com, and don't always note the RSUs and bonuses. Together, that's often 10-20% over what you see on those sites. Doesn't close the gap, of course.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        Yes. But the gap isn’t nearly as wide as people think it is once you consider the lifestyle you can live in metro Atlanta (where those companies are headquartered) compared to making more on the west coast. Yes I realize I’m arguing both sides. I didn’t even think about accepting the chance to apply for a role at $BigTech when a recruiter reached out to me that would have been $75K-$100K more than I was making if it meant that I had to move to Seattle. I did take a permanently remote role that paid $60K-$75K more by doing a slight pivot from pure software development.
    - woobar 3y ago
      Stock options are not limited to private companies. Public companies do stock options too. The only difference from RSUs is if stock goes below your strike price they are worthless at vesting. You still can wait it out. Everyone at my dinosaur financial company was getting them 15 years ago. Not a life changing amounts at my level though.

There are non-tech companies that give stock options and bonuses to software people. Many in those stodgy/established areas you mention.

by tyingq 3y ago

There are non-tech companies that give stock options and bonuses to software people. Many in those stodgy/established areas you mention.

scarface_74 3y ago

Stock options are basically worth $0 statistically. But the fact remains that if you look at compensation at most companies outside of the major tech companies, these numbers look realistic. As an anecdote, I use to live in Atlanta and every time I looked for a job, Delta airlines came on my radar. https://www.levels.fyi/companies/delta-air-lines/salaries https://www.levels.fyi/companies/delta-air-lines/salaries This is accurate and in the same range other companies in Atlanta pay like Home Depot, Coke, etc.

georgeecollins 3y ago
I think what you mean to say is that the modal payout of stock options is $0, which could be true (source?). But even something that could typically return 0 is valuable to own.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  It’s a well known statistic that only one out of ten startups “succeed” and by “success” it just means investors got their money back. It doesn’t mean that employees got anything meaningful. https://www.failory.com/blog/startup-failure-rate https://www.failory.com/blog/startup-failure-rate Stock options are also mostly illiquid and you don’t know the value of what you’re holding. My RSUs in a public company are vested every six months. I know the potential value of those options just by looking at my spreadsheet and I can see the value updated almost real time (the GoogleFinance function). How long have Stripe employees been waiting on their company to go public?
  - hgsgm 3y ago
    Do you you think most employees are at brand new startups, or at larger near-liquidity companies?
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      How is that “near liquidity” working out for Stripe employees? And a lot of companies thought they were “near liquidity” until the bottom fell out of the IPO market and the public got wise to thought that it might not be a good idea to invest in a money losing company where all of the upside had already been captured by the private investors. And then the other out use to be getting acquired. But that’s not happening as much now because of the combination of high interest rates and more aggressive anti trust enforcement (I’m not saying whether that is good or bad). Every startup I’ve ever spoken to has promised that they are near an exit. But when I was on the corp dev side of compensation, I valued that at $0 and made sure I was at market - which wasn’t hard as a journeyman CRUD developer living in metro Atlanta. Now that I’m on the other side and have BigTech on my resume (cloud consulting department), startups are always trying to pull me in as an “architect” and occasionally a “CTO” (really just an overinflated title) and dangling “equity” at me. I would much rather have RSUs deposited in my brokerage account every six months.
  - georgeecollins 3y ago
    Yeah but again, if you have those options that usually are worthless, I will still buy them off of you because I understand that something that has a lifetime value between 0 and X is not valued at 0. Anecdotally, I have worked at companies that had ESOPs (does anyone do that anymore?), options in public companies, stock in a private start up and RSUs. Often they were worthless but at the end of the day they were also worth more than all the salary I got. You can't assume an option will be worth anything, but I think you should take them.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      But I could basically assume that my four year initial stock grant would be worth something when they vested and I knew I could sell them on the day they vested and diversify. The longer you work at a private company with illiquid “equity”, the less diversified you are, waiting, hoping and praying that an exit event would happen and you aren’t able to sell when you need cash.
tyingq 3y ago
>Stock options are basically worth $0 statistically. Just saying I personally know developers at companies very similar to the ones you're listing that get stock options. While nobody is getting rich, they do exercise them when they vest, for non-trivial amounts. Bonuses are common as well.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  Are we talking about the same thing? Stock options - private companies that give you options that aren’t liquid (usually) until an exit event at sone undefined time. RSUs - a known amount of stock granted in a public company with a known vesting date. I know people at those companies and they aren’t getting paid nearly as much at the senior level as even a mid level software engineer at one of the larger tech companies. I have been on both sides and spent most of my time as an enterprise dev.
  - tyingq 3y ago
    I'm talking about RSUs, yes...apologies. I'm not saying they are getting FAANG level money. I'm saying that they often only report their base salary to sites like glassdoor/salary.com, and don't always note the RSUs and bonuses. Together, that's often 10-20% over what you see on those sites. Doesn't close the gap, of course.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      Yes. But the gap isn’t nearly as wide as people think it is once you consider the lifestyle you can live in metro Atlanta (where those companies are headquartered) compared to making more on the west coast. Yes I realize I’m arguing both sides. I didn’t even think about accepting the chance to apply for a role at $BigTech when a recruiter reached out to me that would have been $75K-$100K more than I was making if it meant that I had to move to Seattle. I did take a permanently remote role that paid $60K-$75K more by doing a slight pivot from pure software development.
  - woobar 3y ago
    Stock options are not limited to private companies. Public companies do stock options too. The only difference from RSUs is if stock goes below your strike price they are worthless at vesting. You still can wait it out. Everyone at my dinosaur financial company was getting them 15 years ago. Not a life changing amounts at my level though.