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Wow, no kidding: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the_core_team/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the... Mod r

Wow, no kidding: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the_core_team/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the... Mod response: > For all those wondering about removed comments, there was some trolling going on which was summarily removed by the mods. > Please avoid any trolling and/or drama seeking comments and remember our subreddit rules. "Trolling" on display in the archives of that thread: https://www.reveddit.com/v/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the_core_team/ https://www.reveddit.com/v/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_t... And then there's Graydon's reply to the "we will exclude you," in the code of conduct, and the subsequent drama: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6ewjt5/question_about_rusts_odd_code_of_conduct/didrult/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6ewjt5/question_about... Frankly, even though no one has asked for my opinion, the amount of effort people put into the code of conduct (and the discussion around it) is ridiculous; utterly ridiculous. In a time long ago, before everyone was incapable of compromising and cooperating with one another, we had two rules in an informal code of conduct for interacting with one another: 1. Be cool 2. Don't be an asshole And then we all went back to trying to achieving the task at hand.

CRConrad 3y ago
From this “Graydon's reply” you linked: > Some people, naturally, feel that the norms spelled out in the rust CoC makes them feel excluded. To which all I can say is, yes, it's true: the rust CoC focuses on behaviour, not people, but if there's a person who cannot give up those behaviours, then implicitly it excludes such a person. If someone just can't get their work done effectively or can't enjoy themselves without stalking or harassing someone, or cracking a sexist or racist joke, or getting into a flame war, or insulting their colleagues, I suggest they go enjoy the numerous other totally viable language communities. Hm... So, if someone just can't get their work done effectively or can't enjoy themselves without going behind the backs of the whole ostensibly “Leadership” group, what then? Has that person been ostracized yet? Have they even been named?!? (I sure ain't seen no sign of it.) If not, why not? There seems to be a hyuuuge amount of effort being expended to spare that person's feelings... Which seems a) misdirected AF, and b) all too typical of these “governance by namby-pambyism” CoC committee organisations that everything on the Internet appears to have turned into in the last half-decade or so.
calvinmorrison 3y ago
State your assumptions, prepare to be boarded -9front IRC banner.
croes 3y ago
Since micro aggressions are a thing number 2 is hardly possible.
- deterministic 3y ago
  I feel offended by woke people.
- mwcampbell 3y ago
  That's not my understanding of micro-aggressions [1]. IIUC, inadvertently doing a micro-aggression isn't being an asshole, but persisting in it after it has been pointed out definitely is. [1]: Disclosure: I'm a minority (disabled), but I'm also a white man.
  - croes 3y ago
    The question is whether everything that is called a micro aggression is one.
  - croes 3y ago
    Ever heard of the Law of Penetrance of Negative Residues?
- levihaku 3y ago
  [flagged]
- account42 3y ago
  Your assumptions about micro-aggressions existing are wrong. "Don't be an asshole" is (or should be) about how you act towards others not how others perceive your actions. If someone wants to be offended, that's them not being cool.
di4na 3y ago
[flagged]
- rgbgraph 3y ago
  Fair point, and one I needed to reflect on. I think in my past, whenever I've been in a leadership position over a group of people, we've all been there to achieve some goal. We were all cooperating to reach the same end -- and those with a different opinion of that "end" were excluded. I have also been on the opposite side of this: I've been a member of groups whose goals I did not agree with. And no amount of civility or communication would bridge that chasm; therefore my opinions and thoughts were excluded (and I voluntarily left). There is no right or wrong here -- if I step back and stop injecting my own feelings into the conversation: there are just differences. I don't like theories. I don't like abstract things that try to become a source of truth, while completely ignoring and marginalizing the very real human element involved. I have no respect for them. In my view, "don't be an asshole" is basically: you join a group of people, do not carelessly or intentionally go against the norms of that group. Do not insert yourself into a group of people that you know you will not get along with. There is no right or wrong, but there is conflict and no conflict. But even now, as much as I have tried to take a step back with an objective lens, and disassociate from my very real thoughts, feelings, and beliefs: what is the point? I hold all of these because they are integral to who I am. As do the people of the Rust community. Disjointed thoughts, without a goal to neatly encapsulate them all. Or perhaps my goal was to share my human experience with others? To socialize and create bonds with others? Quite a silly thing to do on the internet.
  - di4na 3y ago
    Something you may have missed here. What if the shared goal and belief of the group, was one that in practice is also exclusionary? In that sense, even if the tone stays civil in group, the problem is still there.
    - mwcampbell 3y ago
      Any examples of how this happens in practice with software projects? Actually curious about this.
jaegerpicker 3y ago
I've been involved with Software Development for over 20 years started with VB6 and some perl/python in 1998. I saw the "informal code of conduct" and it never worked. What really happened: many people were treating terribly and most of it was swept under the rug. CoC were created for valid and good reasons. I'm not defending the Rust community here, it seems childish to me. The past is not what you are trying to claim it was in this post. Look up the MANY Rails conference sexual harassment issues and worse. We should not whitewash the past because the present isn't what we want.
- rgbgraph 3y ago
  Full disclosure, I usually do not involve myself with large groups -- so my views are likely to be a bit more innocent/naive. The past that I lived in was comprised of people you personally knew; not anonymous membership in a large organization or group, where you could never hope to know everyone on a personal level. There was very little opportunity for people to be unchecked dicks to one another, because you saw everyone consistently and could easily notice when something was going on. Perhaps this is an unsolved issue about scaling human communities?
  - SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
    [dead]
  - asveikau 3y ago
    I do think this is kind of naive. If you consider something like a sexual assault, or even the more severe forms of harassment, that tends to happen among people who know each other, and people often don't talk about it after being victimized. So you not knowing those stories out of your tight knit community doesn't mean much -- if those stories exist you might need to have the parties involved trust you a lot to confide it, or you might need to really probe people about it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Klonoar 3y ago
If (2) was a core piece, then having worked on enough open source projects I can assure you that informal code of conduct didn't do shit. ;P
- levihaku 3y ago
  [flagged]
levihaku 3y ago
[flagged]

CRConrad 3y ago

From this “Graydon's reply” you linked: > Some people, naturally, feel that the norms spelled out in the rust CoC makes them feel excluded. To which all I can say is, yes, it's true: the rust CoC focuses on behaviour, not people, but if there's a person who cannot give up those behaviours, then implicitly it excludes such a person. If someone just can't get their work done effectively or can't enjoy themselves without stalking or harassing someone, or cracking a sexist or racist joke, or getting into a flame war, or insulting their colleagues, I suggest they go enjoy the numerous other totally viable language communities. Hm... So, if someone just can't get their work done effectively or can't enjoy themselves without going behind the backs of the whole ostensibly “Leadership” group, what then? Has that person been ostracized yet? Have they even been named?!? (I sure ain't seen no sign of it.) If not, why not? There seems to be a hyuuuge amount of effort being expended to spare that person's feelings... Which seems a) misdirected AF, and b) all too typical of these “governance by namby-pambyism” CoC committee organisations that everything on the Internet appears to have turned into in the last half-decade or so.

calvinmorrison 3y ago

State your assumptions, prepare to be boarded -9front IRC banner.

croes 3y ago

Since micro aggressions are a thing number 2 is hardly possible.

deterministic 3y ago
I feel offended by woke people.
mwcampbell 3y ago
That's not my understanding of micro-aggressions [1]. IIUC, inadvertently doing a micro-aggression isn't being an asshole, but persisting in it after it has been pointed out definitely is. [1]: Disclosure: I'm a minority (disabled), but I'm also a white man.
- croes 3y ago
  The question is whether everything that is called a micro aggression is one.
- croes 3y ago
  Ever heard of the Law of Penetrance of Negative Residues?
levihaku 3y ago
[flagged]
account42 3y ago
Your assumptions about micro-aggressions existing are wrong. "Don't be an asshole" is (or should be) about how you act towards others not how others perceive your actions. If someone wants to be offended, that's them not being cool.

di4na 3y ago

[flagged]

rgbgraph 3y ago
Fair point, and one I needed to reflect on. I think in my past, whenever I've been in a leadership position over a group of people, we've all been there to achieve some goal. We were all cooperating to reach the same end -- and those with a different opinion of that "end" were excluded. I have also been on the opposite side of this: I've been a member of groups whose goals I did not agree with. And no amount of civility or communication would bridge that chasm; therefore my opinions and thoughts were excluded (and I voluntarily left). There is no right or wrong here -- if I step back and stop injecting my own feelings into the conversation: there are just differences. I don't like theories. I don't like abstract things that try to become a source of truth, while completely ignoring and marginalizing the very real human element involved. I have no respect for them. In my view, "don't be an asshole" is basically: you join a group of people, do not carelessly or intentionally go against the norms of that group. Do not insert yourself into a group of people that you know you will not get along with. There is no right or wrong, but there is conflict and no conflict. But even now, as much as I have tried to take a step back with an objective lens, and disassociate from my very real thoughts, feelings, and beliefs: what is the point? I hold all of these because they are integral to who I am. As do the people of the Rust community. Disjointed thoughts, without a goal to neatly encapsulate them all. Or perhaps my goal was to share my human experience with others? To socialize and create bonds with others? Quite a silly thing to do on the internet.
- di4na 3y ago
  Something you may have missed here. What if the shared goal and belief of the group, was one that in practice is also exclusionary? In that sense, even if the tone stays civil in group, the problem is still there.
  - mwcampbell 3y ago
    Any examples of how this happens in practice with software projects? Actually curious about this.

jaegerpicker 3y ago

I've been involved with Software Development for over 20 years started with VB6 and some perl/python in 1998. I saw the "informal code of conduct" and it never worked. What really happened: many people were treating terribly and most of it was swept under the rug. CoC were created for valid and good reasons. I'm not defending the Rust community here, it seems childish to me. The past is not what you are trying to claim it was in this post. Look up the MANY Rails conference sexual harassment issues and worse. We should not whitewash the past because the present isn't what we want.

rgbgraph 3y ago
Full disclosure, I usually do not involve myself with large groups -- so my views are likely to be a bit more innocent/naive. The past that I lived in was comprised of people you personally knew; not anonymous membership in a large organization or group, where you could never hope to know everyone on a personal level. There was very little opportunity for people to be unchecked dicks to one another, because you saw everyone consistently and could easily notice when something was going on. Perhaps this is an unsolved issue about scaling human communities?
- SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
  [dead]
- asveikau 3y ago
  I do think this is kind of naive. If you consider something like a sexual assault, or even the more severe forms of harassment, that tends to happen among people who know each other, and people often don't talk about it after being victimized. So you not knowing those stories out of your tight knit community doesn't mean much -- if those stories exist you might need to have the parties involved trust you a lot to confide it, or you might need to really probe people about it.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Klonoar 3y ago

If (2) was a core piece, then having worked on enough open source projects I can assure you that informal code of conduct didn't do shit. ;P

levihaku 3y ago
[flagged]

levihaku 3y ago

[flagged]