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Octopuses are building small “cities” off the coast of Australia (2017)
- deafpolygon 3y agoOldie but goodie, but my theory is that they're evolving to take over the planet.
- mc32 3y agoAt least the okeanosphere.
- ok_dad 3y agoThey may already have orcas doing the first probes…
- hourago 3y agoI am still waiting for them to discover the use of fire. Until that happens we are safe.
- croes 3y agoSome think if mankind fails and goes extinct, the octopuses will be their successors
- BiteCode_dev 3y agoThey would have to not die so quickly to do so. And also get out of the water given it's pretty hard to make chemistry in there.
- hanniabu 3y agoThe latter is inevitable, the former is the real challenge
- inkcapmushroom 3y agoWe die pretty quickly too, octopi are only off us by an order of magnitude or two. Maybe the trees think this way about us too.
- stubybubs 3y agoReminds me of this scientific article from the highly credible news source "The Onion." https://www.theonion.com/dolphins-evolve-opposable-thumbs-1819565718 https://www.theonion.com/dolphins-evolve-opposable-thumbs-18...
- carrozo 3y agoProbably my favourite article by them. Back in the day, it used to have a subheading too: “‘Oh shit,’ says humanity.”
- glenstein 3y agoDo you mean that in a literal way, like there's a pressure imposed by natural selection toward it? Or maybe something a bit less direct, such as this is what octopi want to do/are trying to do (to the extent that they want or try things)?
- gremlinsinc 3y agowhat if aliens who maybe are more like octopuses than us, decided to take existing octopuses and speed up evolution and strengthen their genome to basically be longer living, more durable, and able to out think humans.
- wwweston 3y agoHuh. Something just a bit beyond this plus some significant AI developments is the bulk of milieu for _The Mountain In The Sea_: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374605957/themountaininthesea https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374605957/themountaininth...
- Baeocystin 3y agoOh, that looks like a fun read! I enjoy the genre of 'marine biologist writes sci-fi about the nature of consciousness', but I can only take so much Peter Watts before I feel the need to read something with at least a dreg of hope, you know?
- isoprophlex 3y agoDid you read the Children of Time trilogy? [] In the second or third book, amongst other things, a planet is seeded with octopuses and an "uplift virus" that dramatically boosts their sentience. It's a brilliant trilogy in its own right, but the sentient squids were my favorite species by far. Each having 8 independent minds to gather data and execute, plus a central vague philosophically minded intellect that holds their volition and long term planning. [] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Time_(novel) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Time_(novel)
- Baeocystin 3y agoI have not, and I've just added it to my read list. Thank you for the recommendation!
- crooked-v 3y agoThose books are interesting, but suffer a bit from the author just handwaving away increasingly unlikely bio-technology as it goes on despite trying to keep a "hard" scifi premise.
- lucubratory 3y agoSpoilers for the books, I disagree with the above but don't want to spoil it for anyone who doesn't want it spoiled. I think that's basically justified. He gives the foundation of their tech with a good amount of rigour and plausibility, and then as their civilisation develops and becomes equivalent to human civilisation and then significantly higher tech he obviously can't go into full detail on every piece of technology any more than you could write a story about modern human society while including a description of how every piece of our technology that is mentioned works, from first principles - the resulting book would be beyond the capability of any individual to write and would include far, far more descriptions of technological principles than actual plot. Just imagine if you wanted to tell a story about an interpersonal relationship between two people, but one of them uses a chat program on their phone and even though you've previously explained how our computation basically worked, now you have to explain neural networks and then LLMs - I think it's reasonable to just expect the viewer to imagine the things that aren't directly explained as being approximately as well explained and justified as everything else was. He does definitely go beyond hard sci-fi at the end of book two though. The idea that c as a limit is simply a result of our brains thinking too linearly is silly, and in general going beyond the hard laws of physics is where I draw the line.
- lurquer 3y agoThe title — grammatically —- hints at the idea that this is new behavior. (As opposed to newly-discovered behavior.) Why phrase it as “are building” instead of “build”? Within the article, there is this quote that further hints at the click-baity idea that this is some new behavior: “ Researchers now suspect octopuses have been building group habitats for a long time.” Would one say that squirrels have been hiding nuts for a “long time”? Phrasing it this way, in my opinion, misleads the reader it I thinking this is some new behavior which has been going on for a “long time” — perhaps for several decades! When, in reality, it’s probably normal octopus behavior thst had been occuring for as long as there have been octopuses. I picture s 18th century naturalist breathlessly writing to the Royal Society: “you know the beavers we heard about? Well, you’re not going to believe this, but they are now building dams! And I think they’ve been up to this for quite some time! What will they come up with next?!”
- doubled112 3y agoYour complaint reads like that Mitch Hedburg joke. "I used to do drugs. I still do, but I used to too"
- 20after4 3y agoI used to think that joke was pretty funny. I still do, but I used to too!
- someweirdperson 3y agoBuilding a city sounds like a concious activity. But then there is: > "Congregations such as these probably occur wherever shelter is limited to small patches of habitat, and food is plentiful," Scheel told Quartz. They don't decide to live nearby others, but there simply is no other place. The headline should be: Octopuses cannot live everywhere and may settle close to eachother if there is no other space available.
- emmelaich 3y agoThe Beatles song was in fact inspired by literal octopus's gardens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus%27s_Garden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus%27s_Garden
- chaostheory 3y ago> About 10 to 15 octopuses live here, in mounds of shells that have been constructed over generations Sounds more like a village than a city or even a town
- stubybubs 3y agoProbably doesn't even have a Starbucks. It's a one-seahorse town.
- jjtheblunt 3y agoMaybe one of them sells starfish for a buck?
- dotancohen 3y agoBy the sea shore.
- efitz 3y agoA few years ago I read a great sci-fi book, "Children of Ruin", by Adrian Tchaikovsky[1]. The book features, among other things, an octopus civilization. It's the second book in the series; the first features a spider civilization. I highly recommend both; they explore concepts of what civilizations would look like with intelligences very different from our own. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Children-Ruin-Time-Adrian-Tchaikovsky/dp/031645253X https://www.amazon.com/Children-Ruin-Time-Adrian-Tchaikovsky...
- roughly 3y agoHe’s got a third now, Children of Memory - it also is quite good. The whole series is really fantastic, although I think I enjoyed the second book with the octopi the most.
- not_your_mentat 3y ago*octopuses. XD
- thom 3y agoOctopodes.
- smitty1110 3y agoFor the curious, Meriam-Webster had a discussion about this on their blog (and a video that’s harder to find on mobile): https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-many-plurals-of-octopus-octopi-octopuses-octopodes https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-many-plura...
- Rexxar 3y agoAn octopi is indeed a quadritau
- roughly 3y agoYou know, I even looked it up before posting: https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-many-plurals-of-octopus-octopi-octopuses-octopodes https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-many-plura... tl;dr there’s no right answer, and consequently no way to say “more than one octopus” on the internet without yours being the first response :-)
- dr_dshiv 3y agoIf we have the technological capability of giving animals enhanced cognitive capabilities—and we do not give it to them—that is an interesting moral choice. Worth a thought.
- throwaway_5753 3y agoDo we? What would that look like? Edit: missed the "if". Assuming you put that there because we currently do not have this tech. Speculatively: like most society wide moral choices, it'd probably be made in such a way as to serve the short term interests of whoever had the power to enact the policy. Alternatively: Would octopus uplift increase the quarterly profits? If so, say hello to your new eight-legged neighbors.
- frabcus 3y agoNeuralink for cephalopods.
- Escapado 3y agoPlease no. Make my dog smarter so she can use the toilet or not roll in poop, great. But I don’t want to be attacked by Cthulus spawn at night.
- dr_dshiv 3y agoGenetically engineered octopi could be developed to grow hard little nubs on their tentacles so they were capable of giving massage therapy. Quarterly profits indeed! But then, perhaps they would learn to give each other nub rubs and then we’d have this runaway hedonic biological phenomena underseas. My god.
- codetrotter 3y agoThen again perhaps giving them enhanced cognitive capabilities would only serve to make existence worse for them? In which case, giving them enhanced cognitive capabilities would be morally worse than leaving them as is.
- xwdv 3y agoI wonder if there are any discernible social structures in these cities, perhaps there is a mayor or sheriff.
- penguin_booze 3y agoTangent: > The first time that divers discovered a "city" of octopuses off the coast of Australia, it seemed like a fluke. I learned from Kevin Malone what 'fluke' means: https://youtu.be/b8KbWAMJk1g?t=275 https://youtu.be/b8KbWAMJk1g?t=275.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- namenumber 3y agoI just finished "Other Minds" by Godfrey-Smith which reference one of these "Octopolises". For anybody interested in either octopuses or how nature evolves different forms of consciousness its a really interesting read. What most struck me was how incredibly short lived octopuses are. I guess some deep-sea variants may have longer life spans, but i was surprised that the variants we usually encounter only live for approximately two years before they wither and die. Now as for what an octopus could be able to do with its body-distributed form of consciousness given a longer lifespan is a rather interesting question.
- glenstein 3y agoRight, and I think that exposes a bit of an unconscious assumption that many people (or perhaps just me) probably have, namely that intelligence seems to accompany longevity, but that is clearly not always the case.
- vram22 3y agoWhich in turn exposes the assumption that longevity is desirable. See Steve Jobs' commencement speech at Stanford, 2005, where, among other things, he points out that we will all be recycled some day. https://youtu.be/UF8uR6Z6KLc https://youtu.be/UF8uR6Z6KLc
- purpleflame1257 3y agoLongevity provides the ability to assimilate more data, which would seem to be good for an intelligent creature.
- glenstein 3y agoYeah longevity seems to be good so far as I can tell, from just about any perspective. That is, if life is good, then life plus longevity is also good. I think it feels like progress to discover counterintuitive thoughts, and so thought experiments or explorations tend to to incentivize the seeking out of counterintuitive thoughts, which I think sometimes has the effect of endorsing strange conclusions, because their counterintuitive nature is what makes them seductive. I find the phrase "it's not a trick question" to be a healthy antidote, and I think when it comes to longevity it's in the "not a trick question" category, and, is fair to put in the good column, with usual caveats about all else being equal and except for unusual circumstances etc.
- Perenti 3y agoThere was a large group of octopus homes on the sea floor shelf north of Bogangar Headland (east coast Australia) in the late 70s/early 80s. I used to play with the octopuses as a teen. I had no idea it was a scientifically significant thing though. I wonder if they're still there, as there's been a lot of development nearby.
- neffo 3y agoFinally someone is taking action on the rental crisis in Australia.
- EdwardDiego 3y ago/golf clap
- andrewstuart 3y agoIt makes me feel ill to think we eat them.
- deepzn 3y agoThe first time I've read about their mating practices. So interesting. > Typically, octopuses mate when the male shoots a package of sperm called a spermatophore at the female through the water. The barbed package burrows into her skin and releases the sperm. No touching is required.
- deepzn 3y agoI'm wondering if Octopuses are more social creatures than we thought before. In My Octopus Teacher, the octopus seemed really friendly and social with the human. But I also read that they don't get along with other octopuses most of the time. And in this article too they fight over territory. But Humans do that too, and we're social. If forming social relations are evolutionary advantages, then I wonder would perhaps Octopuses start developing more social tendencies as a means of adapting to these new environmental changes. As noted in the article, the areas contained surplus food. Which is also interesting, but maybe this is just a local phenomenon, because there were many headlines in recent years about overfishing.
- deepzn 3y agoI guess the evolutionary advantages don't exist as their prey are usually small and a single octopus wouldn't have trouble hunting by themselves. And outside of teaming up to thwart predators, but I don't think that would help against sharks unless they have a much higher intelligence and can outsmart them like how humans have evolved to do. So not really clear to me why they are living nearby, aside from abundant food and no pressure to explore new areas. So it comes back to maybe they are social. Next thing you know, they'll playing underwater pickleball with each other.
- local_crmdgeon 3y agoI’m begging everyone in this thread to stop eating octopus. There’s a very good chance they’re sentient, and stopping once you know that is a moral imperative.
- noisy_boy 3y agoAt the risk of sounding like a fad/new-age-influenced person, I have stopped eating Octopus after seeing "My Octopus Teacher"[0]. Just can't bring myself to do it. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Octopus_Teacher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Octopus_Teacher
- NavinF 3y agoMany animals are probably sentient, but personally I see no moral imperative to not eat them. If anyone in this thread is wondering what octopus meat tastes like, I encourage them to try Takoyaki at any Japanese restaurant or Boba tea shop: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takoyaki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takoyaki
- nefitty 3y agoNot seeing the moral imperative is not the same as there not being a moral imperative. The attitude that motivated your comment is astonishingly cruel.
- onethought 3y agoHow is there a moral imperative? Could you explain it?
- chimprich 3y agoI think there's a moral imperative not to kill animals for food that are above a certain level of intelligence; we can use intelligence level as a proxy for capability for suffering. To take an example ranking of potential food animals: fish, chickens, cows, pigs, great apes, humans. There's a question about where you draw the line, but most people agree there is one. Few people think it's OK to eat chimps. It's not clear on this hierarchy where octopuses fit in.
- syngrog66 3y ago[flagged]
- jhanschoo 3y ago> "octopi" source? Wiktionary gives me this: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/octopus#Usage_notes https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/octopus#Usage_notes
- syngrog66 3y agono source is needed words mean whatever we want them to mean. dictionaries revise themselves every year to add a new/changed definition based on what appears to be recent popular usage if we want octopi to be the "correct" plural form then it will be declared English is riddled with inconsistencies and hip slang anyway octopi: I'm +1 on it
- jhanschoo 3y agoSure, your current reasoning has convinced me to accept octopi. But by this reasoning, you're the one suggesting, against your present justification, that octopuses is not a "correct" plural (and should be corrected to "octopi"), when its in "recent popular usage". In which case there is no use for the comment I had replied to.
- syngrog66 3y agopoint ----> your head ;-) please dont troll in the future. makes social media worse for the rest of us. HN has a bad rep in this regard already
- deepzn 3y agoHad one octopus post yesterday- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36091954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36091954 It's raining Octopuses on HN.
- pkphilip 3y agoThat's it. Wait till they also start using Chat GPT and we are well and truly toast.
- KevinChen6 3y agoWhile AI is accelerating the demise of humans, the evolution of octopuses is on track, will the species that rules the earth after humans be octopuses?
- Borrible 3y agoThose witty little buggers are also serious cannibals. They even use to torture and eat themselves after mating. Early death after reproduction probabbly increases the chances of survival for the offspring. Neither intelligence nor consciousness are goals of evolution, only some possible ways.Their way of life is the behavior that ensures the temporary optimum for passing on their genetic information.