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No, you're misrepresenting it. Your rationale is that Russia is an evil empire trying to expand its borders to its former glory, and that's why it attacked Ukra

by brabel 3y ago

No, you're misrepresenting it. Your rationale is that Russia is an evil empire trying to expand its borders to its former glory, and that's why it attacked Ukraine... a primary school level of simplification. You ignore that Russia's number one fear after the collapse of the USSR was for another military invasion from the West, as had happened several times over the last few centuries... that Russia's border with Ukraine is its most "porous" border, easy to cross for whatever purpose, including a military invasion... that NATO's whole purpose since it was founded has always been to counter Russia, so the Russian's fears that NATO is an enemy are absolutely correct... that Ukraine's Euromaidan revolution caused Ukraine to go from a neutral country (or a buffer country as most people call it) to being actively hostile against Russia, which was the trigger for the Crimean invasion in 2014... that the US and UK, as guarantors of the Budapest Agreement with Russian and Ukraine, should have immediately intervened to defend Ukraine when that happened, but did absolutely nothing, giving Russia confirmation that it would be able to keep Ukraine out of NATO by force, which is really what it is trying to do currently... and finally, that every country has its motivations to do the things it does, a lot more complex and subtle than "being evil and wanting more land", and perhaps trying to understand what those motivations are, why their culture has evolved the way it has and how it is likely to react to your actions, would go a very long way to avoiding stupid conflicts like this. But yeah, it's so much easier to keep parroting the news and thinking of the whole story as a black-and-white, villain VS hero story.

lisasays 3y ago
Your rationale is that Russia is an evil empire trying to expand its borders to its former glory, and that's why it attacked Ukraine... a primary school level of simplification. Disagree. Replace "evil empire" with "Old-school imperialist power" and you have a 90 percent approximation to the essential truth about that country (or its current leadership, in any case). For all its banality. Though "evil" of course is not a misplaced word to use either, in regard to its actions.
HellDunkel 3y ago
You could have made your point without accusing anyone of parroting „the media“. Russia has agreed to the borders of Ukraine in 1993 and from then on 2 more times. They have onesidedly broken the agreement and attacked a peaceful neighbour, no commitment to not joining NATO has been granted. These are facts you can easily look up, no need to come up with made up security concerns which have been no problem a decade earlier.
- GartzenDeHaes 3y ago
  It's worth noting that the agreements that guarantee Ukraine's borders also guarantee Russia's access to their black sea military bases in the Chimera.
  - genman 3y ago
    Nothing like this has been granted to Russia. It was a time limited lease, like HK from China. Russia also unilaterally broke these agreements in 2014.
chrz 3y ago
"Russia's number one fear after the collapse of the USSR was for another military invasion from the West[...]" Nice, Russia is just defending itself. Excuse me i need to go laugh out loud somewhere
- genman 3y ago
  Yes, Russia is not expanding, it's defending it's borders. I'm well familiar with the endless bullshit that is coming from Russia including this one.
genman 3y ago
Well, Russia is an evil empire trying to expand its borders to its former glory. If you haven't understood this by now then it's not meaningful to continue this discussion with you.
- Viliam1234 3y ago
  Even if we adopt the moral relativism and stop calling Russia "evil"... still, the fact remains that it is an empire trying to expand its borders to its former glory.
  - genman 3y ago
    Well, they are evil, we just can't ignore that. If calling to murder millions of people is commonly tolerated public discourse then what else are they?
Viliam1234 3y ago
You can both be right at the same time. It is true Russia was invaded several times over the last few centuries. It is also true that Russia have invaded and annexed many countries over the last few centuries. Evil empires also get invaded once in a while. Sometimes, when everyone else is hostile to you, it can make sense to consider that maybe... just maybe... you might be doing something that triggers their anger. Like, what possible reason might the countries of Eastern Europe have to hate Russia? What possible reason might Ukraine specifically have to hate Russia? Does "Holodomor" ring a bell? It is ironic that the countries of Warsaw Pact were more likely to be invaded by Warsaw Pact than by NATO. > trying to understand what those motivations are, why their culture has evolved the way it has and how it is likely to react to your actions But when we do exactly this, you call it "parroting the news".
- Aerbil313 3y ago
  > Sometimes, when everyone else is hostile to you Anthromorphizing, just another symptom of the human mind’s inability to really comprehend things as complex as geopolitics. We’re not meant for this, people! Technology has complexified our simple and beautiful world.
  - genman 3y ago
    We understand the "geopolitics" very well. We also understand that pretender, that Russia is, always has been and always will be.
    - Aerbil313 3y ago
      We’re not meant to understand any of that. It doesn’t mean a few people devoting their lifes to it can be familiar with a fraction of the actual depth of such complex subjects. https://youtu.be/o1vX03h7w9c https://youtu.be/o1vX03h7w9c
      - candiodari 3y ago
        It's much simpler. People in Ukraine, and everwhere in Eastern Europe compare the future that Russia offers them, and the future the West offers them. I'm sure some are swayed by high minded theoretical ideas, but not many. They choose the West. We all know why. Money you could say, but it's more something like "a better life". And yes, the Holodomor is part of this. That came from the east. Something else starting with "Holo" also came, but from the West. But if Maidan proved anything, it's that the West offers Ukrane a better life, in the mind of Ukranians, a better Future. It's not really about history. And, of course, this government will not let that go. You can say the same about everyone from Estonia to, really, even Turkey (I mean, at this point they're seriously insulted by the West ... but not nearly insulted enough to choose Russia's side). And Russia is afraid. They're "locked in" with impossible to defend borders. They're not friends with the West ... and they're not quite insane enough to imagine China is their friend either. So the idea that Putin initially defended, that without a "buffer zone": countries that will fight or at least obstruct the west, Russia cannot avoid losing large amounts of territory very quickly if it comes to an open conflict, from either side. And they cannot really project power over the sea, without approval from either Europe or China either (or if the Arctic melts, with US agreement). They're fucked, or at least, you have to admit there's a logic there.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
javifu 3y ago
You are completely right and I highly recommend to watch "The Putin interviews" by Oliver Stone to those who disagree. America is trying to drive Europe and Russia away, just to defend a collapsing empire. The sabotage of the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline ($10B) began long before it was blown up and the Ukraine war has deep roots and consequences to Europe. The EU is just one of the Sauron's rings of power, it's not Europa.
- genman 3y ago
  You are full of you know what and so is Oliver Stone. What next, you quote Steven Seagal? I'm sorry, but Russia is a genocidal Nazi state. If you have not realized this by now then you haven't paid enough attention.

by brabel 3y ago

lisasays 3y ago

Your rationale is that Russia is an evil empire trying to expand its borders to its former glory, and that's why it attacked Ukraine... a primary school level of simplification. Disagree. Replace "evil empire" with "Old-school imperialist power" and you have a 90 percent approximation to the essential truth about that country (or its current leadership, in any case). For all its banality. Though "evil" of course is not a misplaced word to use either, in regard to its actions.

HellDunkel 3y ago

You could have made your point without accusing anyone of parroting „the media“. Russia has agreed to the borders of Ukraine in 1993 and from then on 2 more times. They have onesidedly broken the agreement and attacked a peaceful neighbour, no commitment to not joining NATO has been granted. These are facts you can easily look up, no need to come up with made up security concerns which have been no problem a decade earlier.

GartzenDeHaes 3y ago
It's worth noting that the agreements that guarantee Ukraine's borders also guarantee Russia's access to their black sea military bases in the Chimera.
- genman 3y ago
  Nothing like this has been granted to Russia. It was a time limited lease, like HK from China. Russia also unilaterally broke these agreements in 2014.

chrz 3y ago

"Russia's number one fear after the collapse of the USSR was for another military invasion from the West[...]" Nice, Russia is just defending itself. Excuse me i need to go laugh out loud somewhere

genman 3y ago
Yes, Russia is not expanding, it's defending it's borders. I'm well familiar with the endless bullshit that is coming from Russia including this one.

genman 3y ago

Well, Russia is an evil empire trying to expand its borders to its former glory. If you haven't understood this by now then it's not meaningful to continue this discussion with you.

Viliam1234 3y ago
Even if we adopt the moral relativism and stop calling Russia "evil"... still, the fact remains that it is an empire trying to expand its borders to its former glory.
- genman 3y ago
  Well, they are evil, we just can't ignore that. If calling to murder millions of people is commonly tolerated public discourse then what else are they?

Viliam1234 3y ago

You can both be right at the same time. It is true Russia was invaded several times over the last few centuries. It is also true that Russia have invaded and annexed many countries over the last few centuries. Evil empires also get invaded once in a while. Sometimes, when everyone else is hostile to you, it can make sense to consider that maybe... just maybe... you might be doing something that triggers their anger. Like, what possible reason might the countries of Eastern Europe have to hate Russia? What possible reason might Ukraine specifically have to hate Russia? Does "Holodomor" ring a bell? It is ironic that the countries of Warsaw Pact were more likely to be invaded by Warsaw Pact than by NATO. > trying to understand what those motivations are, why their culture has evolved the way it has and how it is likely to react to your actions But when we do exactly this, you call it "parroting the news".

Aerbil313 3y ago
> Sometimes, when everyone else is hostile to you Anthromorphizing, just another symptom of the human mind’s inability to really comprehend things as complex as geopolitics. We’re not meant for this, people! Technology has complexified our simple and beautiful world.
- genman 3y ago
  We understand the "geopolitics" very well. We also understand that pretender, that Russia is, always has been and always will be.
  - Aerbil313 3y ago
    We’re not meant to understand any of that. It doesn’t mean a few people devoting their lifes to it can be familiar with a fraction of the actual depth of such complex subjects. https://youtu.be/o1vX03h7w9c https://youtu.be/o1vX03h7w9c
    - candiodari 3y ago
      It's much simpler. People in Ukraine, and everwhere in Eastern Europe compare the future that Russia offers them, and the future the West offers them. I'm sure some are swayed by high minded theoretical ideas, but not many. They choose the West. We all know why. Money you could say, but it's more something like "a better life". And yes, the Holodomor is part of this. That came from the east. Something else starting with "Holo" also came, but from the West. But if Maidan proved anything, it's that the West offers Ukrane a better life, in the mind of Ukranians, a better Future. It's not really about history. And, of course, this government will not let that go. You can say the same about everyone from Estonia to, really, even Turkey (I mean, at this point they're seriously insulted by the West ... but not nearly insulted enough to choose Russia's side). And Russia is afraid. They're "locked in" with impossible to defend borders. They're not friends with the West ... and they're not quite insane enough to imagine China is their friend either. So the idea that Putin initially defended, that without a "buffer zone": countries that will fight or at least obstruct the west, Russia cannot avoid losing large amounts of territory very quickly if it comes to an open conflict, from either side. And they cannot really project power over the sea, without approval from either Europe or China either (or if the Arctic melts, with US agreement). They're fucked, or at least, you have to admit there's a logic there.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

javifu 3y ago

You are completely right and I highly recommend to watch "The Putin interviews" by Oliver Stone to those who disagree. America is trying to drive Europe and Russia away, just to defend a collapsing empire. The sabotage of the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline ($10B) began long before it was blown up and the Ukraine war has deep roots and consequences to Europe. The EU is just one of the Sauron's rings of power, it's not Europa.

genman 3y ago
You are full of you know what and so is Oliver Stone. What next, you quote Steven Seagal? I'm sorry, but Russia is a genocidal Nazi state. If you have not realized this by now then you haven't paid enough attention.