5 ms·

> For all its technological whizzyness, the system has downsides. Cost is one. Mr Redi reckons each raising of the barrier costs about €150,000 (other estimates

by jxf 3y ago

> For all its technological whizzyness, the system has downsides. Cost is one. Mr Redi reckons each raising of the barrier costs about €150,000 (other estimates are higher). Great article but I'm really curious about this number. If the alternative to raising the barrier is "the entire city floods" then that... seems like a pretty good trade? Also, nobody talks about the cost of raising and lowering a drawbridge. The whole point of it is to be raised or lowered, just like the barrier.

LaurensBER 3y ago
The issue is not the cost at the moment. The real issue is, what are we going to do in 50 years? Invest even more money to buy another 10-50 years or will we have to admit defeat? If there's even a chance of admitting defeat that will be felt in property prices and investments a lot sooner than those 50 years.
- ta1243 3y ago
  Venice is a small city compared to Jakarta, and they're moving Jakarta. However I'm not sure if they will succeed in their plans with Jakarta, sure the big companies will move, but moving a city is not a trivial thing to do.
  - rippercushions 3y ago
    They're building a showcase city a thousand kilometers away in a different island as the new capital, but they're not relocating the 20+ million who live in Jakarta.
    - tough 3y ago
      If they relocate the govt and companies paying salaries to those 20M, won't they also move there?
      - 627467 3y ago
        That's it: 20 million helpless people are going to move like sheep because shepherds are moving to another place.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        They are relocating the government. The private companies weren’t invited. This is like how Burma moved its capital from Rangoon to Nay Pyi Taw, Rangoon is still the commercial capital if Burma.
        jcranmer 3y ago
        The other examples I would reach for are Côte d'Ivoire moving its capital from Abidjan to Yamoussoukro in 1983, or Nigeria moving from Lagos to Abuja in 1991. In both cases, the old capital is still far and away the largest city in the country, like 10× the new capital city.
        ta1243 3y ago
        > Nigeria moving from Lagos to Abuja in 1991 By comparison, since 2020 the Lagos population grew by more than the entire population of Abuja.
      - paavope 3y ago
        I’m sure some will move, but that number is going to be closer to 0 than 20M
  - inawarminister 3y ago
    Jakartan here, will never move even if the whole city get flooded (more than it has been). I'll probably get a houseboat and settle down. More realistically, Northern Jakarta is sinking, but the Southern part (and the suburbs/exurbs in the surrounding area) are still going to be okay and Jabodetabek will still be home to millions.
- frankfrankfrank 3y ago
  In another 50 years the condition of Venice will be a footnote in the ledger of systemic problems that bring everything to a halt. The system, the organism or ecosystem of European civilization world wide is rotting and collapsing right before our very eyes. We are witness to the Technology Age Collapse, whether people can or want to see it or not. That will have consequences for everything and everyone, including Venice. AI cannot create any of the things that formed the European civilization that produced and maintained everything we all have, like computers, electricity, communications, transportation, flight, etc. AI can copy, emulate, and automate; it cannot create harmonious and finely humanly tuned things. It would never have created the works of art and architecture, let alone the technologies to produce everything in order to solve specific human problems.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
    Uhm, all of the technologies you mention were developed by a web of humans far larger and more diverse than "European civilization." This reads very poorly.
  - 11235813213455 3y ago
    > let alone the technologies to produce everything in order to solve specific human problems not just technologies, but policies, education, mindsets. The goal is to make people switch from a high environmental impact to a low one. You don't need much technologies to get a bicycle rather than a heavy hence polluting vehicle. The situation we are now is just the result of many many smaller ones
  - alpaca128 3y ago
    > AI can copy, emulate, and automate; it cannot create harmonious and finely humanly tuned things. It would never have created the works of art and architecture I have yet to see evidence that this kind of assertion will age any better than the famous 64kB quote. True, AI can't create masterpieces today, but claiming it will never match humans feels more like emotional wishful thinking.
    - gattilorenz 3y ago
- goodpoint 3y ago
  > property prices and investments Most of the value of Venice is cultural and it's not measured with money.
  - ivanhoe 3y ago
    Well, for people living there it's how they pay their bills, so for them it's very practical economical problem. And not just them, the whole Veneto region in fact lives from tourism, and Venice is their main attraction, so they all heavily depend on it. Even here in Istria (Croatia) many people live from organizing boat tours to Venice, so the economical impact of these changes goes even beyond just Italy.
    - pydry 3y ago
      I visited once and stayed well away from the center. It didnt look like anyone much actually did live there - which makes sense, if you owned an apartment it seems you were better off renting it to tourists and moving to mestre.
    - goodpoint 3y ago
      Tourism is a completely different thing from the market value of the home you live in.
    - toyg 3y ago
      > the whole Veneto region in fact lives from tourism This has.not been true for more than 30 years. Veneto is the heartland of the original Benetton, a heavily industrialised region, the engine of the Italian North-East economic mini-boom of the 80s/90s (based on low-cost manufacturing). In fact, there is a massive duality between the tourism industry in Venice and the economy of the mainland, which is markedly reflected in politics (Venice tends to elect leftist mayors, while Veneto as a whole is very rightwing). Losing the tourism industry would definitely be a blow to the economy, but Veneto would survive economically just fine.
suprjami 3y ago
Most likely a drawbridge doesn't average out to half a million euros each raise, like the figure quoted later in the article.
orthoxerox 3y ago
> Mr Redi reckons each raising of the barrier costs about €150,000 (other estimates are higher). Why not raise the barrier permanently, then? Build a lock for the ships going to Marghera, reroute the sewage and runoff to the sea outside the barrier.
- twelve40 3y ago
  > reroute the sewage can this be done across a bunch of islands and canals with tightly clustered ancient buildings? i don't think they even have a central sewer
- gryzzly 3y ago
  the article talks about this – it’s a major ecological concern as it‘d turn the lagoon into standing water, and Venice is already notorious in polluting the lagoon.
  - arp242 3y ago
    But reroute the sewage would solve that, no? That won't be cheap or easy, but neither is this barrier.
    - asah 3y ago
      ...or continuously circulate the water?
    - twelve40 3y ago
      i think sewage is only a part of the problem, even without sewage standing water may turn into a giant swamp or a salt pond
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rufasterisco 3y ago
  The debate around preserving Venice's lagoon as a body of water linked to the open sea has been ongoing for centuries. A public authority to oversee these issues, the Magistrato alle Acque [1], was established in 1501, and large-scale public works were mandated around the same time (i.e., rerouting rivers to prevent the lagoon from silting up). The reasons for this have evolved over time. It began to protect waterways that enabled local commerce, and expanded alongside Venice's dominance across the Mediterranean Sea. This led to the identity of a city that celebrated its "Wedding of the Sea" every year [2]. As a modern-day example of this, UNESCO has enlisted `Venice and its Lagoon` in its World Heritage list [3], stating: ``` Criterion (v): In the Mediterranean area, the lagoon of Venice represents an outstanding example of a semi-lacustral habitat which has become vulnerable as a result of irreversible natural and climate changes. In this coherent ecosystem where the muddy shelves (alternately above and below water level) are as important as the islands, pile-dwellings, fishing villages and rice-fields need to be protected no less than the palazzi and churches. ``` In the present day, when Venice is mainly seen as a tourist attraction, it's easy to underestimate this. However, locals still draw a firm line between those who live in the city and the "campagnoli" (people from the countryside). Any plan to sever this historical link between Venice and the sea would be a tough sell, regardless of its economic or technical feasibility. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magistrato_alle_acque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magistrato_alle_acque [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_of_the_Sea_ceremony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_of_the_Sea_ceremony [3] https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/394/ https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/394/
dagw 3y ago
Also, nobody talks about the cost of raising and lowering a drawbridge. Worked at a civil engineering company that worked on a major drawbridge project. Minimising the number of times it needed to be opened/closed was a major concern and huge point of contention.
- asah 3y ago
  due to power or blocking traffic? I believe OP was strictly referring to power consumption...
  - kaydub 3y ago
    I assumed it was due to the height of the ships that typically passed. Probably costs more to build the bridge higher so you don't have to raise it as often, so they fight about lowering costs and minimize the number of times they raise the bridge.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    Power consumption to open a drawbridge should not be extraordinary. The bridge leaves/moveable sections are counterbalanced.
  - dagw 3y ago
    Traffic mainly, but also maintenance. Mechanisms needed to be inspected/serviced every N openings. Although the big fight was basically that 'Team Road' wanted the bridge to open twice a day at fixed times and if a boat missed its slot it just had to wait, while 'Team River' wanted the bridge to open within 10 minutes of any boat showing up.
rcme 3y ago
Wouldn’t it be much more cost effective to move for most people?
- arp242 3y ago
  Yes, but it's really about protecting the old historic city, rather than the people.
FriedPickles 3y ago
Perhaps they could lower the total cost if they recaptured compressed air as seawater reenters the gates during the sinking process. There are unavoidable losses to heat, but if they did this it wouldn't be too different from "deep sea pumped storage" concepts.
- jaclaz 3y ago
  There would be the need of huge (leakproof) containers for the compressed air recovered, from a back of the envelope calculation, we are talking of 100,000-150,000 cubic meters of compressed air.

by jxf 3y ago

LaurensBER 3y ago

The issue is not the cost at the moment. The real issue is, what are we going to do in 50 years? Invest even more money to buy another 10-50 years or will we have to admit defeat? If there's even a chance of admitting defeat that will be felt in property prices and investments a lot sooner than those 50 years.

ta1243 3y ago
Venice is a small city compared to Jakarta, and they're moving Jakarta. However I'm not sure if they will succeed in their plans with Jakarta, sure the big companies will move, but moving a city is not a trivial thing to do.
- rippercushions 3y ago
  They're building a showcase city a thousand kilometers away in a different island as the new capital, but they're not relocating the 20+ million who live in Jakarta.
  - tough 3y ago
    If they relocate the govt and companies paying salaries to those 20M, won't they also move there?
    - 627467 3y ago
      That's it: 20 million helpless people are going to move like sheep because shepherds are moving to another place.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      They are relocating the government. The private companies weren’t invited. This is like how Burma moved its capital from Rangoon to Nay Pyi Taw, Rangoon is still the commercial capital if Burma.
      - jcranmer 3y ago
        The other examples I would reach for are Côte d'Ivoire moving its capital from Abidjan to Yamoussoukro in 1983, or Nigeria moving from Lagos to Abuja in 1991. In both cases, the old capital is still far and away the largest city in the country, like 10× the new capital city.
        ta1243 3y ago
        > Nigeria moving from Lagos to Abuja in 1991 By comparison, since 2020 the Lagos population grew by more than the entire population of Abuja.
    - paavope 3y ago
      I’m sure some will move, but that number is going to be closer to 0 than 20M
- inawarminister 3y ago
  Jakartan here, will never move even if the whole city get flooded (more than it has been). I'll probably get a houseboat and settle down. More realistically, Northern Jakarta is sinking, but the Southern part (and the suburbs/exurbs in the surrounding area) are still going to be okay and Jabodetabek will still be home to millions.
frankfrankfrank 3y ago
In another 50 years the condition of Venice will be a footnote in the ledger of systemic problems that bring everything to a halt. The system, the organism or ecosystem of European civilization world wide is rotting and collapsing right before our very eyes. We are witness to the Technology Age Collapse, whether people can or want to see it or not. That will have consequences for everything and everyone, including Venice. AI cannot create any of the things that formed the European civilization that produced and maintained everything we all have, like computers, electricity, communications, transportation, flight, etc. AI can copy, emulate, and automate; it cannot create harmonious and finely humanly tuned things. It would never have created the works of art and architecture, let alone the technologies to produce everything in order to solve specific human problems.
- jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
  Uhm, all of the technologies you mention were developed by a web of humans far larger and more diverse than "European civilization." This reads very poorly.
- 11235813213455 3y ago
  > let alone the technologies to produce everything in order to solve specific human problems not just technologies, but policies, education, mindsets. The goal is to make people switch from a high environmental impact to a low one. You don't need much technologies to get a bicycle rather than a heavy hence polluting vehicle. The situation we are now is just the result of many many smaller ones
- alpaca128 3y ago
  > AI can copy, emulate, and automate; it cannot create harmonious and finely humanly tuned things. It would never have created the works of art and architecture I have yet to see evidence that this kind of assertion will age any better than the famous 64kB quote. True, AI can't create masterpieces today, but claiming it will never match humans feels more like emotional wishful thinking.
  - gattilorenz 3y ago
goodpoint 3y ago
> property prices and investments Most of the value of Venice is cultural and it's not measured with money.
- ivanhoe 3y ago
  Well, for people living there it's how they pay their bills, so for them it's very practical economical problem. And not just them, the whole Veneto region in fact lives from tourism, and Venice is their main attraction, so they all heavily depend on it. Even here in Istria (Croatia) many people live from organizing boat tours to Venice, so the economical impact of these changes goes even beyond just Italy.
  - pydry 3y ago
    I visited once and stayed well away from the center. It didnt look like anyone much actually did live there - which makes sense, if you owned an apartment it seems you were better off renting it to tourists and moving to mestre.
  - goodpoint 3y ago
    Tourism is a completely different thing from the market value of the home you live in.
  - toyg 3y ago
    > the whole Veneto region in fact lives from tourism This has.not been true for more than 30 years. Veneto is the heartland of the original Benetton, a heavily industrialised region, the engine of the Italian North-East economic mini-boom of the 80s/90s (based on low-cost manufacturing). In fact, there is a massive duality between the tourism industry in Venice and the economy of the mainland, which is markedly reflected in politics (Venice tends to elect leftist mayors, while Veneto as a whole is very rightwing). Losing the tourism industry would definitely be a blow to the economy, but Veneto would survive economically just fine.

suprjami 3y ago

Most likely a drawbridge doesn't average out to half a million euros each raise, like the figure quoted later in the article.

orthoxerox 3y ago

> Mr Redi reckons each raising of the barrier costs about €150,000 (other estimates are higher). Why not raise the barrier permanently, then? Build a lock for the ships going to Marghera, reroute the sewage and runoff to the sea outside the barrier.

twelve40 3y ago
> reroute the sewage can this be done across a bunch of islands and canals with tightly clustered ancient buildings? i don't think they even have a central sewer
gryzzly 3y ago
the article talks about this – it’s a major ecological concern as it‘d turn the lagoon into standing water, and Venice is already notorious in polluting the lagoon.
- arp242 3y ago
  But reroute the sewage would solve that, no? That won't be cheap or easy, but neither is this barrier.
  - asah 3y ago
    ...or continuously circulate the water?
  - twelve40 3y ago
    i think sewage is only a part of the problem, even without sewage standing water may turn into a giant swamp or a salt pond
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rufasterisco 3y ago
The debate around preserving Venice's lagoon as a body of water linked to the open sea has been ongoing for centuries. A public authority to oversee these issues, the Magistrato alle Acque [1], was established in 1501, and large-scale public works were mandated around the same time (i.e., rerouting rivers to prevent the lagoon from silting up). The reasons for this have evolved over time. It began to protect waterways that enabled local commerce, and expanded alongside Venice's dominance across the Mediterranean Sea. This led to the identity of a city that celebrated its "Wedding of the Sea" every year [2]. As a modern-day example of this, UNESCO has enlisted `Venice and its Lagoon` in its World Heritage list [3], stating: ``` Criterion (v): In the Mediterranean area, the lagoon of Venice represents an outstanding example of a semi-lacustral habitat which has become vulnerable as a result of irreversible natural and climate changes. In this coherent ecosystem where the muddy shelves (alternately above and below water level) are as important as the islands, pile-dwellings, fishing villages and rice-fields need to be protected no less than the palazzi and churches. ``` In the present day, when Venice is mainly seen as a tourist attraction, it's easy to underestimate this. However, locals still draw a firm line between those who live in the city and the "campagnoli" (people from the countryside). Any plan to sever this historical link between Venice and the sea would be a tough sell, regardless of its economic or technical feasibility. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magistrato_alle_acque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magistrato_alle_acque [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_of_the_Sea_ceremony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_of_the_Sea_ceremony [3] https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/394/ https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/394/

dagw 3y ago

Also, nobody talks about the cost of raising and lowering a drawbridge. Worked at a civil engineering company that worked on a major drawbridge project. Minimising the number of times it needed to be opened/closed was a major concern and huge point of contention.

asah 3y ago
due to power or blocking traffic? I believe OP was strictly referring to power consumption...
- kaydub 3y ago
  I assumed it was due to the height of the ships that typically passed. Probably costs more to build the bridge higher so you don't have to raise it as often, so they fight about lowering costs and minimize the number of times they raise the bridge.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  Power consumption to open a drawbridge should not be extraordinary. The bridge leaves/moveable sections are counterbalanced.
- dagw 3y ago
  Traffic mainly, but also maintenance. Mechanisms needed to be inspected/serviced every N openings. Although the big fight was basically that 'Team Road' wanted the bridge to open twice a day at fixed times and if a boat missed its slot it just had to wait, while 'Team River' wanted the bridge to open within 10 minutes of any boat showing up.

rcme 3y ago

Wouldn’t it be much more cost effective to move for most people?

arp242 3y ago
Yes, but it's really about protecting the old historic city, rather than the people.

FriedPickles 3y ago

Perhaps they could lower the total cost if they recaptured compressed air as seawater reenters the gates during the sinking process. There are unavoidable losses to heat, but if they did this it wouldn't be too different from "deep sea pumped storage" concepts.

jaclaz 3y ago
There would be the need of huge (leakproof) containers for the compressed air recovered, from a back of the envelope calculation, we are talking of 100,000-150,000 cubic meters of compressed air.