5 ms·

Pure democracy as you describe it, even if technically feasible, would still result in tyrannies and terrible outcomes. The biggest problem isn't lack of influe

Pure democracy as you describe it, even if technically feasible, would still result in tyrannies and terrible outcomes. The biggest problem isn't lack of influence on the laws, it's lack of knowledge, reason, understanding and empathy. And that problem exists whether it's x number of people influencing the outcome, or 1,000,000x. Every negative influence that politicians are open to, the masses are also open to (though scale may vary e.g. wrt corruption). The overwhelming evidence across the globe is that people are easily fooled, easily misled, easily manipulated, prone to illogic, prone to responding emotively, prone to selfishness, and can be corruptible, destructive and suicidal. They routinely will sacrifice advances to their own cause in order to exclude, punish and exorcise others. No, technically direct democracy would lead to no better outcome, though I'm sure at some point in our history we'll try it.

still_grokking 3y ago
You've just made an anti-argument to your own claim. As people are people, real democracy would not be worse than the status quo as we're already ruled by people with lack of knowledge, reason, understanding and empathy. But you can't for example corrupt the majority of all people. So real democracy would be at least in this point better. By no means worse, but better in some regards is a clear win imho! > lack of knowledge, reason, understanding and empathy.
- account-5 3y ago
  I'd love to agree with you but people in general are easily manipulated on mass. Currently the majority are too I'll informed to make appropriate decisions about anything, making them even easily to manipulate. I'll include myself in this. For real democracy to work it's more than giving all people the right to vote on all things. They need to all be informed about all the issues in an impartial way in a way that those people can fully understand. That I'd say is impossible.
  - still_grokking 3y ago
    > I'd love to agree with you but people in general are easily manipulated on mass. It's even easier with single persons or small groups… Just given them a little bit money or alternatively aim with a gun at them or someone they love. This method wouldn't scale to a whole society. > Currently the majority are too I'll informed to make appropriate decisions about anything […] > They need to all be informed about all the issues in an impartial way in a way that those people can fully understand. And you really think the "decision makers" are anyhow better informed, smarter, more altruistic and don't just think about their own well being most of the time? That's a very naïve stand, to be honest.
    - account-5 3y ago
      > And you really think the "decision makers" are anyhow better informed, smarter, more altruistic and don't just think about their own well being most of the time? That's a very naïve stand, to be honest. At no point did I say anything of the sort, and I'm not sure how you've extrapolated that from what I've said.
  - Joeri 3y ago
    The point of democracy is not that everybody is perfectly informed to come to the logically best outcome. The point is that it gives a people agency over their own future. If they choose to be ill-informed and pick bad candidates, they own the consequences. Democracy does not lead to the best outcome, but to the most fair one.
    - account-5 3y ago
      That's certainly what's wrong with democracy.
      - still_grokking 3y ago
        People?
        account-5 3y ago
        No. None of this stuff works without people. There's a reason we have representative democracies instead of true democracies. Why we elect people to make those decisions. I'm not saying it's working but I don't think true democracy would work any better either because the underlying issue with democracy is you're relying on ill informed people, people who don't understand either the issue upon which they vote or the consequences of a vote either way, to make decisions. People easily manipulated by social media filter bubbles and ridiculous slogans. Or in our current democracies just money. I think democracy is probably the best we've had to date but it's showing its flaws.
    - phs318u 3y ago
      > they own the consequences No. We own the consequences. > the most fair one. The most fair, yes, probably. The fairest? No. Though I’ll admit I’m stumped (though in good company I suspect) as to how to possibly achieve the fairest outcome. I suspect it’s a platonic ideal, barring a Star Trek reality coming to life.
      - Loquebantur 3y ago
saiya-jin 3y ago
There is at least 1 place where it works in some extent for 800 years - Switzerland. Public votes few times every year on basically anything enough people decide to vote on (100k signatures needed in 8m population and you have a public vote). You want to ban mosques, or join Nato or have 6 weeks of paid vacation? Have a say. Also weak central government, and strong cantonal ones with their own rules and laws. THAT is true freedom in the hands of people, to decide on your lives, to have freedom to improve it or mess it up. Every effin' politician knows it, yet they conveniently ignore it, or even outright attack it when they are spewing words like freedom and democracy. It doesnt matter if EU or US or any other place.
- herbst 3y ago
  This so much. It works for us and there is no reason it wouldn't work for others. Politicians here have a completely different role in society. They ain't hero's, they ain't badman's the are just smart people doing their democratic jobs. And society talks about concrete topics and not politicians.
- hulitu 3y ago
  It is not working there also. See the Covid vaccine theater.
- Broken_Hippo 3y ago
  As another poster pointed out: Swiss women couldn't vote in national elections until 1991. Democracy isn't a perfect system, it is just that having a system with some democracy in it is the best we've come up with so far. Any minority will never truly have a say. It doesn't matter if you can vote if you don't have enough numbers to make a difference. Your best bet would be that folks tire of voting on these - but that's only if you can get enough signatures. Hope you can work and get signatures at the same time and that you aren't in too poor health to do this. It isn't 'freedom', it is just another way to be tyrannical and claim there is "freedom". It isn't like folks born in a country/region can just move somewhere else. Heck, folks fleeing actual war have some issues with this.
herbst 3y ago
See Switzerland. Yes most of the time new ideas are not easily heart, but the whole population gets to hear it and vote on it. Yes more often than not Revolutionary or forward leaning ideas don't get a yes on the first glance. But at this point the whole population talked about the topic. And here comes the magic. A few years later a new idea arises better than any idea before and suddenly people get it. We talk and vote about topics and not politicians.
- hkt 3y ago
  Don't get me wrong, I love the Swiss model of lots of referenda, very strong regional (canton) govt and a seven person executive, but also.. Swiss women didn't get the vote at federal level until 1991. Some changes are hard to pull off through referenda, others less so.
  - herbst 3y ago
    That's the other side of the book I guess. There are plenty more examples like this. Imagine getting only men to vote yes to lose 50% of their voting power. Imagine getting a million farmers and their family's to vote for a drastic new way in ecological farming. Same issue, different times.
  - agurk 3y ago
    > Swiss women didn't get the vote at federal level until 1991 To be pedantic it was one Canton (Appenzell Innerrhoden) that the supreme court finally forced to let women have full voting rights, as in the rest if the Cantons, in 1990 [0]. So it was part of the state forcing this rather than through their direct democracy, which makes the issue even more interesting. The other states were still slow at granting universal suffrage, Vaud being the first in 1959. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerl...
    - hkt 3y ago
      That is interesting - as you can tell I only had a shallow knowledge of it. I'll read more about how it works. Thanks!

still_grokking 3y ago

You've just made an anti-argument to your own claim. As people are people, real democracy would not be worse than the status quo as we're already ruled by people with lack of knowledge, reason, understanding and empathy. But you can't for example corrupt the majority of all people. So real democracy would be at least in this point better. By no means worse, but better in some regards is a clear win imho! > lack of knowledge, reason, understanding and empathy.

account-5 3y ago
I'd love to agree with you but people in general are easily manipulated on mass. Currently the majority are too I'll informed to make appropriate decisions about anything, making them even easily to manipulate. I'll include myself in this. For real democracy to work it's more than giving all people the right to vote on all things. They need to all be informed about all the issues in an impartial way in a way that those people can fully understand. That I'd say is impossible.
- still_grokking 3y ago
  > I'd love to agree with you but people in general are easily manipulated on mass. It's even easier with single persons or small groups… Just given them a little bit money or alternatively aim with a gun at them or someone they love. This method wouldn't scale to a whole society. > Currently the majority are too I'll informed to make appropriate decisions about anything […] > They need to all be informed about all the issues in an impartial way in a way that those people can fully understand. And you really think the "decision makers" are anyhow better informed, smarter, more altruistic and don't just think about their own well being most of the time? That's a very naïve stand, to be honest.
  - account-5 3y ago
    > And you really think the "decision makers" are anyhow better informed, smarter, more altruistic and don't just think about their own well being most of the time? That's a very naïve stand, to be honest. At no point did I say anything of the sort, and I'm not sure how you've extrapolated that from what I've said.
- Joeri 3y ago
  The point of democracy is not that everybody is perfectly informed to come to the logically best outcome. The point is that it gives a people agency over their own future. If they choose to be ill-informed and pick bad candidates, they own the consequences. Democracy does not lead to the best outcome, but to the most fair one.
  - account-5 3y ago
    That's certainly what's wrong with democracy.
    - still_grokking 3y ago
      People?
      - account-5 3y ago
        No. None of this stuff works without people. There's a reason we have representative democracies instead of true democracies. Why we elect people to make those decisions. I'm not saying it's working but I don't think true democracy would work any better either because the underlying issue with democracy is you're relying on ill informed people, people who don't understand either the issue upon which they vote or the consequences of a vote either way, to make decisions. People easily manipulated by social media filter bubbles and ridiculous slogans. Or in our current democracies just money. I think democracy is probably the best we've had to date but it's showing its flaws.
  - phs318u 3y ago
    > they own the consequences No. We own the consequences. > the most fair one. The most fair, yes, probably. The fairest? No. Though I’ll admit I’m stumped (though in good company I suspect) as to how to possibly achieve the fairest outcome. I suspect it’s a platonic ideal, barring a Star Trek reality coming to life.
    - Loquebantur 3y ago

saiya-jin 3y ago

There is at least 1 place where it works in some extent for 800 years - Switzerland. Public votes few times every year on basically anything enough people decide to vote on (100k signatures needed in 8m population and you have a public vote). You want to ban mosques, or join Nato or have 6 weeks of paid vacation? Have a say. Also weak central government, and strong cantonal ones with their own rules and laws. THAT is true freedom in the hands of people, to decide on your lives, to have freedom to improve it or mess it up. Every effin' politician knows it, yet they conveniently ignore it, or even outright attack it when they are spewing words like freedom and democracy. It doesnt matter if EU or US or any other place.

herbst 3y ago
This so much. It works for us and there is no reason it wouldn't work for others. Politicians here have a completely different role in society. They ain't hero's, they ain't badman's the are just smart people doing their democratic jobs. And society talks about concrete topics and not politicians.
hulitu 3y ago
It is not working there also. See the Covid vaccine theater.
Broken_Hippo 3y ago
As another poster pointed out: Swiss women couldn't vote in national elections until 1991. Democracy isn't a perfect system, it is just that having a system with some democracy in it is the best we've come up with so far. Any minority will never truly have a say. It doesn't matter if you can vote if you don't have enough numbers to make a difference. Your best bet would be that folks tire of voting on these - but that's only if you can get enough signatures. Hope you can work and get signatures at the same time and that you aren't in too poor health to do this. It isn't 'freedom', it is just another way to be tyrannical and claim there is "freedom". It isn't like folks born in a country/region can just move somewhere else. Heck, folks fleeing actual war have some issues with this.

herbst 3y ago

See Switzerland. Yes most of the time new ideas are not easily heart, but the whole population gets to hear it and vote on it. Yes more often than not Revolutionary or forward leaning ideas don't get a yes on the first glance. But at this point the whole population talked about the topic. And here comes the magic. A few years later a new idea arises better than any idea before and suddenly people get it. We talk and vote about topics and not politicians.

hkt 3y ago
Don't get me wrong, I love the Swiss model of lots of referenda, very strong regional (canton) govt and a seven person executive, but also.. Swiss women didn't get the vote at federal level until 1991. Some changes are hard to pull off through referenda, others less so.
- herbst 3y ago
  That's the other side of the book I guess. There are plenty more examples like this. Imagine getting only men to vote yes to lose 50% of their voting power. Imagine getting a million farmers and their family's to vote for a drastic new way in ecological farming. Same issue, different times.
- agurk 3y ago
  > Swiss women didn't get the vote at federal level until 1991 To be pedantic it was one Canton (Appenzell Innerrhoden) that the supreme court finally forced to let women have full voting rights, as in the rest if the Cantons, in 1990 [0]. So it was part of the state forcing this rather than through their direct democracy, which makes the issue even more interesting. The other states were still slow at granting universal suffrage, Vaud being the first in 1959. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerl...
  - hkt 3y ago
    That is interesting - as you can tell I only had a shallow knowledge of it. I'll read more about how it works. Thanks!