4 ms·

Random examples that I can think of: Trump has/had (strong) ties with Russia, needed those Russian ties to win the election and used them to win the elections.

Random examples that I can think of: Trump has/had (strong) ties with Russia, needed those Russian ties to win the election and used them to win the elections. People still believe this to this day. Globally.

lern_too_spel 3y ago
> People still believe this to this day. Who? It is accepted that Trump got help from Russia and that he publicly asked for it. It is not accepted that he has strong ties with Russia, and unlike what the GGP has claimed, there is no "official" story saying that. The only person who did say that was private investigator Steele, in a dossier that Clinton didn't believe and discarded but that McCain did and leaked.
- pstuart 3y ago
  As I understand it, the Wikileaks DNC email dump was just a front for Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Democratic_National_Committee_email_leak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Democratic_National_Commi...
  - nyolfen 3y ago
    more realistically, it was israel: https://www.thenation.com/article/world/trump-israel-collusion/ https://www.thenation.com/article/world/trump-israel-collusi... perhaps you recall trump’s first two acts in office — recognizing jerusalem as israel’s capital, and sanctioning russia. curious!
    - pstuart 3y ago
      Ha! Makes sense. I abhor partisan politics but there are things associated with (e.g., Trump) that call for scrutiny. Trump is a fascinating character and has broken so many norms that it's been mind bending. It saddens me that HN has many of his rabid acolytes that make any such discussion a shit show.
      - splendor_spoon 3y ago
        The GP comment is not telling the whole story. Yes the first thing _congress_ did was pass additional sanctions on Russia but Trump delayed [1] them from going into affect for over a year allowing more than enough time for Russia to mitigate the impact significantly. [1] https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/timeline-trumps-delays-russia-sanctions/story?id=50733408 https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/timeline-trumps-delays-r...
        pstuart 3y ago
        There's so much more to explore, but not here. It blows my mind that there are so many rabid supporters here on HN. There's no point in dialog there because there's no interest in that. That said, we should be exploring how to hack society to "improve efficiency at scale", and that requires discussing policy and that is what politics is ostensibly all about. C'est la guerre.
  - ok123456 3y ago
    Why wasn't there a discussion of the contents of the leaks, that the DNC did everything in their power to coronate Hillary, and only a discussion of the leak's provenance?
    - acdha 3y ago
      There was a ton of discussion about those claims but it largely stalked because the leaked emails didn’t show anything significant. You can still find Bernie die-hards claiming a conspiracy but they’re generally ignored because there’s no evidence that he did anything but lose fairly.
    - lern_too_spel 3y ago
      There was. Only barely literate morons and Russian social media astroturfers interpreted the leaked documents that way.
    - pstuart 3y ago
      There was plenty of discussion of the DNC crowning Hillary. I'm pissed about it to this day. What's your point?
    - elihu 3y ago
      It was discussed at the time. Debbie Wasserman-Schultz resigned as DNC chair over what was in the emails. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/24/debbie-wasserman-schultz-resigns-dnc-chair-emails-sanders https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/24/debbie-wasse...
  - pydry 3y ago
    which is often accused, although never proven. when putin accuses media he doesnt like of being foreign agents without proof we can recognize how transparently self serving it is. wouldnt you agree?
api 3y ago
Trump openly asked for help from Russia on national TV. I don’t see how the existence of some degree of Russian collusion is debatable given that it was done in the open. I do agree that there are people who vastly overestimate the extent or effectiveness of whatever Russia did do. Trump won due to general discontent with the status quo coupled with the fact that Hillary Clinton was a politically tone deaf candidate who ran a terrible campaign. If anything Russia did succeeded it’s because it was able to capitalize on this dynamic.
- redeeman 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    Makes a fun sound bite but given the context was he was speaking about a program for people to navigate voter suppression, do you really think he has a secret voter fraud plan and accidentally revealed it like that Politicians speak a lot and I know I myself can mix up words sometimes and I don’t speak nearly enough. > OK, trump wanted the TRUTH to come out, he wanted facts exposed to the american people, that admittedly benefitted him, but still, facts relating to illegalities to his political opponent. That’s just clearly false. > Russia tried to hack Hillary Clinton’s office five hours after Trump called on Moscow to find her deleted emails https://www.vox.com/world/2019/4/19/18507580/mueller-report-trump-russia-obstruction-summary https://www.vox.com/world/2019/4/19/18507580/mueller-report-... So basically Trump solicited a third party to commit a crime on his behalf. As far as I know that makes you an accessory. Also Russia later also hacked the RNC so the lack of release of anything incriminating there leads a reasonable person to conclude I think that they have blackmail info on the RNC that they’re holding back because they have an agreement with the elites in that party. Notice how especially pro-Putin right wing media has been since that time period. The Meuller report is pretty thorough. If you haven’t read it at least find unbiased analysis of what it shows.
    - redeeman 3y ago
      > Russia tried to hack Hillary Clinton’s office five hours after Trump called on Moscow to find her deleted emails Emails that were deleted in a crime, that should have been public record. so while he may have been soliciting a crime (he didnt, and there were never charges, also, if you knew ANYTHING about trump, you knew he joked when he said that. but regardless), he wanted the truth to come out > think that they have blackmail info on the RNC that they’re holding back because they have an agreement with the elites in that party. yeah you think, but you have no evidence, its entirely possible there was nothing there, and we have some evidence to point to that, regardless of how criminal the RNC may have been(and they are for sure every bit as bad as the democrats), in that Trump has talked plenty about how he put great effort to not having any digital copies of important stuff that COULD be hacked, and in addition to that, invest in "cybersecurity"
sanderjd 3y ago
The only incorrect part of that is that it played an important role in his winning the election. But that part isn't necessary for the whole thing to be very bad, in my view.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

lern_too_spel 3y ago

> People still believe this to this day. Who? It is accepted that Trump got help from Russia and that he publicly asked for it. It is not accepted that he has strong ties with Russia, and unlike what the GGP has claimed, there is no "official" story saying that. The only person who did say that was private investigator Steele, in a dossier that Clinton didn't believe and discarded but that McCain did and leaked.

pstuart 3y ago
As I understand it, the Wikileaks DNC email dump was just a front for Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Democratic_National_Committee_email_leak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Democratic_National_Commi...
- nyolfen 3y ago
  more realistically, it was israel: https://www.thenation.com/article/world/trump-israel-collusion/ https://www.thenation.com/article/world/trump-israel-collusi... perhaps you recall trump’s first two acts in office — recognizing jerusalem as israel’s capital, and sanctioning russia. curious!
  - pstuart 3y ago
    Ha! Makes sense. I abhor partisan politics but there are things associated with (e.g., Trump) that call for scrutiny. Trump is a fascinating character and has broken so many norms that it's been mind bending. It saddens me that HN has many of his rabid acolytes that make any such discussion a shit show.
    - splendor_spoon 3y ago
      The GP comment is not telling the whole story. Yes the first thing _congress_ did was pass additional sanctions on Russia but Trump delayed [1] them from going into affect for over a year allowing more than enough time for Russia to mitigate the impact significantly. [1] https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/timeline-trumps-delays-russia-sanctions/story?id=50733408 https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/timeline-trumps-delays-r...
      - pstuart 3y ago
        There's so much more to explore, but not here. It blows my mind that there are so many rabid supporters here on HN. There's no point in dialog there because there's no interest in that. That said, we should be exploring how to hack society to "improve efficiency at scale", and that requires discussing policy and that is what politics is ostensibly all about. C'est la guerre.
- ok123456 3y ago
  Why wasn't there a discussion of the contents of the leaks, that the DNC did everything in their power to coronate Hillary, and only a discussion of the leak's provenance?
  - acdha 3y ago
    There was a ton of discussion about those claims but it largely stalked because the leaked emails didn’t show anything significant. You can still find Bernie die-hards claiming a conspiracy but they’re generally ignored because there’s no evidence that he did anything but lose fairly.
  - lern_too_spel 3y ago
    There was. Only barely literate morons and Russian social media astroturfers interpreted the leaked documents that way.
  - pstuart 3y ago
    There was plenty of discussion of the DNC crowning Hillary. I'm pissed about it to this day. What's your point?
  - elihu 3y ago
    It was discussed at the time. Debbie Wasserman-Schultz resigned as DNC chair over what was in the emails. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/24/debbie-wasserman-schultz-resigns-dnc-chair-emails-sanders https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/24/debbie-wasse...
- pydry 3y ago
  which is often accused, although never proven. when putin accuses media he doesnt like of being foreign agents without proof we can recognize how transparently self serving it is. wouldnt you agree?

api 3y ago

Trump openly asked for help from Russia on national TV. I don’t see how the existence of some degree of Russian collusion is debatable given that it was done in the open. I do agree that there are people who vastly overestimate the extent or effectiveness of whatever Russia did do. Trump won due to general discontent with the status quo coupled with the fact that Hillary Clinton was a politically tone deaf candidate who ran a terrible campaign. If anything Russia did succeeded it’s because it was able to capitalize on this dynamic.

redeeman 3y ago
[flagged]
- vlovich123 3y ago
  Makes a fun sound bite but given the context was he was speaking about a program for people to navigate voter suppression, do you really think he has a secret voter fraud plan and accidentally revealed it like that Politicians speak a lot and I know I myself can mix up words sometimes and I don’t speak nearly enough. > OK, trump wanted the TRUTH to come out, he wanted facts exposed to the american people, that admittedly benefitted him, but still, facts relating to illegalities to his political opponent. That’s just clearly false. > Russia tried to hack Hillary Clinton’s office five hours after Trump called on Moscow to find her deleted emails https://www.vox.com/world/2019/4/19/18507580/mueller-report-trump-russia-obstruction-summary https://www.vox.com/world/2019/4/19/18507580/mueller-report-... So basically Trump solicited a third party to commit a crime on his behalf. As far as I know that makes you an accessory. Also Russia later also hacked the RNC so the lack of release of anything incriminating there leads a reasonable person to conclude I think that they have blackmail info on the RNC that they’re holding back because they have an agreement with the elites in that party. Notice how especially pro-Putin right wing media has been since that time period. The Meuller report is pretty thorough. If you haven’t read it at least find unbiased analysis of what it shows.
  - redeeman 3y ago
    > Russia tried to hack Hillary Clinton’s office five hours after Trump called on Moscow to find her deleted emails Emails that were deleted in a crime, that should have been public record. so while he may have been soliciting a crime (he didnt, and there were never charges, also, if you knew ANYTHING about trump, you knew he joked when he said that. but regardless), he wanted the truth to come out > think that they have blackmail info on the RNC that they’re holding back because they have an agreement with the elites in that party. yeah you think, but you have no evidence, its entirely possible there was nothing there, and we have some evidence to point to that, regardless of how criminal the RNC may have been(and they are for sure every bit as bad as the democrats), in that Trump has talked plenty about how he put great effort to not having any digital copies of important stuff that COULD be hacked, and in addition to that, invest in "cybersecurity"

sanderjd 3y ago

The only incorrect part of that is that it played an important role in his winning the election. But that part isn't necessary for the whole thing to be very bad, in my view.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]