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We're all mammals, so that's less surprising. But octopi having dreams would imply convergent evolution, I think. It seems they may have evolved higher intellig

We're all mammals, so that's less surprising. But octopi having dreams would imply convergent evolution, I think. It seems they may have evolved higher intelligence convergently - which isn't too crazy given the obvious utility of intelligence - but I wonder what it is about dreams in particular that would make them independently appear in different branches. (Unless it turns out some common ancestor of all of us had something like proto-dreams.)

TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
Birds show evidence of REM sleep and some studies suggest they're dreaming.
- seszett 3y ago
  Birds are immensely closer to use than octopods though. Our last common ancestor was a worm with a very primitive nervous system, no brain and not even eyes. Birds are not mammals but we are still both descended from vertebrates with complex brains, at least.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    >Our last common ancestor was a worm with a very primitive nervous system, no brain and not even eyes. Does it matter though? In the end octopuses evolved to be quite smart. That would imply some similar brain development, even if it was being done independently. The same way eyes would work and connect to their brains/nervous system more or less similarly. Makes sense to expect design of later developed organs to match their function, despite the initial point of ancestoral divergence, is my point. So similar designs for the development of function X that work, would be arrived at by many (most? all?) independent evolution processes.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > In the end octopuses evolved to be quite smart. That would imply some similar brain development, even if it was being done independently It would be profound if two independently-evolved intelligences developed a need to dream.
      - coldtea 3y ago
        Why would it be any more profound than any other common needs or functionality of two independently-evolved intelligences? Isn't this assumption begging the question? Only if we a priori consider dreaming something very unique, or put it on a pedestal, would this be "profound". Whereas it could be an essential attribute of intelligent function, a kind of garbage collection from the information acquired during the day for example...
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > if we a priori consider dreaming something very unique, or put it on a pedestal, would this be "profound". Whereas it could be an essential attribute of intelligent function That’s the point. With N ~ 2, we have substance to believing it’s essential versus a fluke.
throwbadubadu 3y ago
> We're all mammals ... But octopi Ah, good point, got it thanks! Now I need some literature about how our brains and nervous systems are different :)
marcosdumay 3y ago
> Unless it turns out some common ancestor of all of us had something like proto-dreams. It's not clear to me at whether every animal with a nervous system dreams. It's something very hard to detect in most animals.
dehrmann 3y ago
> octopi https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/octopodes https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/octopodes The best part is the rare pronunciation: /ɒkˈtɒpədiːz/

TheOtherHobbes 3y ago

Birds show evidence of REM sleep and some studies suggest they're dreaming.

seszett 3y ago
Birds are immensely closer to use than octopods though. Our last common ancestor was a worm with a very primitive nervous system, no brain and not even eyes. Birds are not mammals but we are still both descended from vertebrates with complex brains, at least.
- coldtea 3y ago
  >Our last common ancestor was a worm with a very primitive nervous system, no brain and not even eyes. Does it matter though? In the end octopuses evolved to be quite smart. That would imply some similar brain development, even if it was being done independently. The same way eyes would work and connect to their brains/nervous system more or less similarly. Makes sense to expect design of later developed organs to match their function, despite the initial point of ancestoral divergence, is my point. So similar designs for the development of function X that work, would be arrived at by many (most? all?) independent evolution processes.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > In the end octopuses evolved to be quite smart. That would imply some similar brain development, even if it was being done independently It would be profound if two independently-evolved intelligences developed a need to dream.
    - coldtea 3y ago
      Why would it be any more profound than any other common needs or functionality of two independently-evolved intelligences? Isn't this assumption begging the question? Only if we a priori consider dreaming something very unique, or put it on a pedestal, would this be "profound". Whereas it could be an essential attribute of intelligent function, a kind of garbage collection from the information acquired during the day for example...
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > if we a priori consider dreaming something very unique, or put it on a pedestal, would this be "profound". Whereas it could be an essential attribute of intelligent function That’s the point. With N ~ 2, we have substance to believing it’s essential versus a fluke.

throwbadubadu 3y ago

> We're all mammals ... But octopi Ah, good point, got it thanks! Now I need some literature about how our brains and nervous systems are different :)

marcosdumay 3y ago

> Unless it turns out some common ancestor of all of us had something like proto-dreams. It's not clear to me at whether every animal with a nervous system dreams. It's something very hard to detect in most animals.

dehrmann 3y ago

> octopi https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/octopodes https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/octopodes The best part is the rare pronunciation: /ɒkˈtɒpədiːz/