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Would that be surprising, or shouldn't that be the default assumption that they dream similar like us? I would swear I have experienced bad dreams of my cat, w

Would that be surprising, or shouldn't that be the default assumption that they dream similar like us? I would swear I have experienced bad dreams of my cat, with abrupt movements and mumbled sounds, and then when waking or woken up immediately relaxing or even coming cuddling for comfort, very similar as with my human partner. Also dreaming in general, not just nightmares, is well observable sometimes. I believe I have read similar stories of other's with cats&dogs, too?

meowface 3y ago
We're all mammals, so that's less surprising. But octopi having dreams would imply convergent evolution, I think. It seems they may have evolved higher intelligence convergently - which isn't too crazy given the obvious utility of intelligence - but I wonder what it is about dreams in particular that would make them independently appear in different branches. (Unless it turns out some common ancestor of all of us had something like proto-dreams.)
- TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
  Birds show evidence of REM sleep and some studies suggest they're dreaming.
  - seszett 3y ago
    Birds are immensely closer to use than octopods though. Our last common ancestor was a worm with a very primitive nervous system, no brain and not even eyes. Birds are not mammals but we are still both descended from vertebrates with complex brains, at least.
    - coldtea 3y ago
      >Our last common ancestor was a worm with a very primitive nervous system, no brain and not even eyes. Does it matter though? In the end octopuses evolved to be quite smart. That would imply some similar brain development, even if it was being done independently. The same way eyes would work and connect to their brains/nervous system more or less similarly. Makes sense to expect design of later developed organs to match their function, despite the initial point of ancestoral divergence, is my point. So similar designs for the development of function X that work, would be arrived at by many (most? all?) independent evolution processes.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > In the end octopuses evolved to be quite smart. That would imply some similar brain development, even if it was being done independently It would be profound if two independently-evolved intelligences developed a need to dream.
        coldtea 3y ago
        Why would it be any more profound than any other common needs or functionality of two independently-evolved intelligences? Isn't this assumption begging the question? Only if we a priori consider dreaming something very unique, or put it on a pedestal, would this be "profound". Whereas it could be an essential attribute of intelligent function, a kind of garbage collection from the information acquired during the day for example...
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > if we a priori consider dreaming something very unique, or put it on a pedestal, would this be "profound". Whereas it could be an essential attribute of intelligent function That’s the point. With N ~ 2, we have substance to believing it’s essential versus a fluke.
- throwbadubadu 3y ago
  > We're all mammals ... But octopi Ah, good point, got it thanks! Now I need some literature about how our brains and nervous systems are different :)
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  > Unless it turns out some common ancestor of all of us had something like proto-dreams. It's not clear to me at whether every animal with a nervous system dreams. It's something very hard to detect in most animals.
- dehrmann 3y ago
  > octopi https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/octopodes https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/octopodes The best part is the rare pronunciation: /ɒkˈtɒpədiːz/
Toutouxc 3y ago
Definitely, I’ve seen both a dog and a pet rabbit dream, dozens of times. It’s pretty obvious, sometimes you can even tell what’s happening in the dream if you know your pet well. You can tell if they’re eating, running, playing or fighting. My rabbit would often have a nightmare and suddenly, violently wake up and start thumping her feet. What’s interesting is that she’d never met a real threat in her life.
11235813213455 3y ago
is that cat captive and in an apartment? (not able to wander outside occasionally)
- toasteros 3y ago
  Not the original commenter, but I have indoor cats in my apartment who can only go out on to the balcony. They have very animated dreams sometimes. They'll make whimpering sounds that are like muffles versions of the yowls they make when agitated and/or playing. Their feet will kick as of they're playing with a toy, and sometimes they will suddenly awake. Cat 3/3 in particular will awake "confused" and make questioning meows at me and my partner, before running to one of us as if to say "the heck was that?!". It's interesting. Is it dreams? If so, are they dreams unsettling enough that they look to us for reassurance/comfort, or are we just anthropomorphising?
  - 11235813213455 3y ago
    imo "pets" shouldn't even exist, same with zoos and similar, we should just try to look at wild animals outside, learn to approach and communicate with them. In captivity we can have plants, that's fine
    - runtime_blues 3y ago
      Cats pretty much domesticated themselves for the mutual benefit of both species. There are "captive" pets living in cages or other enclosures that might be a bit more dicey, but cats and dogs are probably a pretty poor example to get upset about.
      - 11235813213455 3y ago
        an apartment or small garden for dogs or cats who usually cover at least 10km daily is captivity another point is also their environmental footprint (20% of meat and fish production, many services and indirect pollution, impact on birds, lezards, etc..)
pyinstallwoes 3y ago
Definitely should be default

meowface 3y ago

We're all mammals, so that's less surprising. But octopi having dreams would imply convergent evolution, I think. It seems they may have evolved higher intelligence convergently - which isn't too crazy given the obvious utility of intelligence - but I wonder what it is about dreams in particular that would make them independently appear in different branches. (Unless it turns out some common ancestor of all of us had something like proto-dreams.)

TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
Birds show evidence of REM sleep and some studies suggest they're dreaming.
- seszett 3y ago
  Birds are immensely closer to use than octopods though. Our last common ancestor was a worm with a very primitive nervous system, no brain and not even eyes. Birds are not mammals but we are still both descended from vertebrates with complex brains, at least.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    >Our last common ancestor was a worm with a very primitive nervous system, no brain and not even eyes. Does it matter though? In the end octopuses evolved to be quite smart. That would imply some similar brain development, even if it was being done independently. The same way eyes would work and connect to their brains/nervous system more or less similarly. Makes sense to expect design of later developed organs to match their function, despite the initial point of ancestoral divergence, is my point. So similar designs for the development of function X that work, would be arrived at by many (most? all?) independent evolution processes.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > In the end octopuses evolved to be quite smart. That would imply some similar brain development, even if it was being done independently It would be profound if two independently-evolved intelligences developed a need to dream.
      - coldtea 3y ago
        Why would it be any more profound than any other common needs or functionality of two independently-evolved intelligences? Isn't this assumption begging the question? Only if we a priori consider dreaming something very unique, or put it on a pedestal, would this be "profound". Whereas it could be an essential attribute of intelligent function, a kind of garbage collection from the information acquired during the day for example...
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > if we a priori consider dreaming something very unique, or put it on a pedestal, would this be "profound". Whereas it could be an essential attribute of intelligent function That’s the point. With N ~ 2, we have substance to believing it’s essential versus a fluke.
throwbadubadu 3y ago
> We're all mammals ... But octopi Ah, good point, got it thanks! Now I need some literature about how our brains and nervous systems are different :)
marcosdumay 3y ago
> Unless it turns out some common ancestor of all of us had something like proto-dreams. It's not clear to me at whether every animal with a nervous system dreams. It's something very hard to detect in most animals.
dehrmann 3y ago
> octopi https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/octopodes https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/octopodes The best part is the rare pronunciation: /ɒkˈtɒpədiːz/

Toutouxc 3y ago

Definitely, I’ve seen both a dog and a pet rabbit dream, dozens of times. It’s pretty obvious, sometimes you can even tell what’s happening in the dream if you know your pet well. You can tell if they’re eating, running, playing or fighting. My rabbit would often have a nightmare and suddenly, violently wake up and start thumping her feet. What’s interesting is that she’d never met a real threat in her life.

11235813213455 3y ago

is that cat captive and in an apartment? (not able to wander outside occasionally)

toasteros 3y ago
Not the original commenter, but I have indoor cats in my apartment who can only go out on to the balcony. They have very animated dreams sometimes. They'll make whimpering sounds that are like muffles versions of the yowls they make when agitated and/or playing. Their feet will kick as of they're playing with a toy, and sometimes they will suddenly awake. Cat 3/3 in particular will awake "confused" and make questioning meows at me and my partner, before running to one of us as if to say "the heck was that?!". It's interesting. Is it dreams? If so, are they dreams unsettling enough that they look to us for reassurance/comfort, or are we just anthropomorphising?
- 11235813213455 3y ago
  imo "pets" shouldn't even exist, same with zoos and similar, we should just try to look at wild animals outside, learn to approach and communicate with them. In captivity we can have plants, that's fine
  - runtime_blues 3y ago
    Cats pretty much domesticated themselves for the mutual benefit of both species. There are "captive" pets living in cages or other enclosures that might be a bit more dicey, but cats and dogs are probably a pretty poor example to get upset about.
    - 11235813213455 3y ago
      an apartment or small garden for dogs or cats who usually cover at least 10km daily is captivity another point is also their environmental footprint (20% of meat and fish production, many services and indirect pollution, impact on birds, lezards, etc..)

pyinstallwoes 3y ago

Definitely should be default