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Let's ignore that almost 100% of the homeless population in America is addicted to drugs. Having experienced drug abuse myself I know for a fact affordable hous

Let's ignore that almost 100% of the homeless population in America is addicted to drugs. Having experienced drug abuse myself I know for a fact affordable housing is not going to do anything for these folks. They need treatment, and that unfortunately doesn't happen voluntarily when you are sick.

spaniard89277 3y ago
Were you born addicted to drugs? People needs treatment and a path to become useful members of society again. Affordable housing makes a lot of poor people able to save money and help their peers.
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  anyone that has any depth of knowelege of the homeless knows there are generally 2 types of homeless population. Transitory economic homeless, these homeless can be assisted by affordable housing, housing first, and other programs. Often these homeless of covered pretty well by current homeless programs, as they are the type of homeless people most easily identify with, and engineer programs to solve. Then there are chronic non-economic homeless. For this group it is not economic issues they face no amount of affordable, or even free housing will make them not homeless, even if you give them a home chances are they will not stay in it. CA has an outsized portion of the latter type of homeless population, and only have programs designed for the former, that is why the problem does not get better. Infact many of CA programs actively harm the latter population
  - spaniard89277 3y ago
    So why other big cities in other continents have so few homeless compard to SF and LA? We do have people with mental problems here in Spain, but most don't roam the streets and end up living under a bridge. And I can assure you the Spanish institutions are not precisely brilliant dealing with problems.
    - phpisthebest 3y ago
      I have no idea, but I suspect it is combination of factors. Let me ask, does Spain have and enforce loitering laws that prevent homeless of camping in front of businesses? Is this a factor in driving them to under the bridges instead of roaming the streets? Because CA prohibits the police from enforcing any of these laws, and many prosecutors refuse to charge anyone with "low level" crime. SF and LA (and CA in general) has the nicest weather, unlike other parts of the US where you have Extreme cold, extreme heat, or both in many area's LA and SF have mild temperate weather with limited rain fall, this promotes a "roaming the street" style of living.
      - spaniard89277 3y ago
        You can see homeless people in my mid-sized city. They typically sit in front of supermarkets or places where they can get money. It's always the same faces. If there's a law about that, it isn't being enforced. Most of Spain has a weather similar to CA.
  - panarchy 3y ago
    It's almost like the second group has been deeply traumatized over time by a society whose only response to their mental health issues was a "fuck you" to the point that their mental health just keeps deteriorating and they become completely anti-social and actively avoid help, because fuck it why contribute back to a system that won't contribute to you. Many view the assistance as just being a pathway to get them back to contributing to a system that already failed them, not real help.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      We could always do what Finland does: admit that these people will never be productive members of society again and get them into housing with social workers on staff. Yes, it’s a constant drain, but Finland says it actually saves money doing it that way, since the services people use on the street turn out to be even more expensive. The big issue is that the USA doesn’t have a national strategy for dealing with homelessness. So any city offering programs that provide housing will become popular very quickly, with predictable results.
      - phpisthebest 3y ago
        >>The big issue is that the USA doesn’t have a national strategy for dealing with homelessness. This is likely saying "the EU does not have strategy for dealing" remember the USA stands for "United STATES" States here is the key... We are 50 independent states, and most of our problems are because we look to the incompetent and corrupt federal government to solve problems they are not constitutional empowered to solve. There is a reason we are not "America" but instead our United States we seem to be losing that foundation, to our own demise. Not every problem is a national one, and homelessness certainly is not >>We could always do what Finland does: admit that these people will never be productive members of society again and get them into housing with social workers on staff. Well we used to do that, after many many many human rights abuses the US stopped doing that, and if you look at the graphs of institutionalization, and homelessness there is a striking correlation as the rate of institutionalization drops the rate of homelessness increases. I am not sure bringing back institutionalization is going to be a popular solution
bombcar 3y ago
I wonder what the total cost of building drug cities in the middle of nowhere and just paying to have the hopelessly drugged far away.
- atchoo 3y ago
  Use the proper term, concentration camps. Y'all need some fences less they make their way back to civilisation. Some guards too. Once you've seen the costs y'all start debating attrition vs. euthanasia for these lost causes. Makes sense right? The losers of American capitalism have proven themselves unworthy to live along side us. No better than vermin. Extermination is the only humane act right? Fascism visibly pulsates under the skin of these dehumanising HN discussions.
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    I assume if you keep providing free drugs, you don't need fences, and the metaphorical irony of that is almost beautiful. I think for branding purposes, I'd try out the term "party camps", but yes, they are quite obviously concentration camps.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      And it might better to have them official and on the books than having ad-hoc ones setup in gullies and under bridges around the city, instead. And if they're far enough away, no fences are needed.
  - drewcoo 3y ago
    > Fascism visibly pulsates under the skin of these dehumanising HN discussions. Yup, and the technology that permeates everything now is designed and implemented with the same mentality, which I think is even more alarming. We've forced everyone into software Skinner boxes.
OrvalWintermute 3y ago
Baizuo white glove treatment of druggie homeless and homeless handouts are the bane of SF
ihaveajob 3y ago
"According to SAMHSA, 38% of homeless people abused alcohol while 26% abused other drugs." [1] The vast majority of homeless people do not look like what's on display near Civic Center in SF. That's just the tip of the iceberg. [1] https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/homeless https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/homeless
- grumple 3y ago
  Firstly, that's a lot of addicts. I was also unable to find what study they were citing on mobile, but I am extremely skeptical. In my city (Philly) we have a population of homeless heroin addicts larger than most towns in the US. Those that aren't in that cluster are generally mentally ill. At the very least, the homeless who are not mentally ill or addicts aren't the ones disrupting our lives, and they are not the cause of the problems we're talking about. This video is from two weeks ago (you can find many more like it): https://youtu.be/ipivYAHEoIM https://youtu.be/ipivYAHEoIM . It doesn't come close to capturing the scale of the neighborhood's blight but gives you an idea. The transient addicted population and people with extreme mental illnesses in Philly have been increasing in number and spread throughout the city though.
raverbashing 3y ago
Cause and consequence. A lot of people become addicts after becoming homeless
yalogin 3y ago
Let’s try not to create more homeless population. That will be a great start. Yes existing population may have problems and they need help beyond just housing, but not adding to that list is a great way to even start helping the existing homeless population
Barrin92 3y ago
Yep. As the article points out in SF this is most concentrated but honestly the US overall seems to have largely abandoned institutionalizing the mentally ill or drug addicts. Rates of drug use or mental illness among the homeless can be as high as 30-50% depending on where and how you measure it, and anyone who has ever met people in that state knows they need to be in professional treatment, by force if necessary.
- inferiorhuman 3y ago
  The long and the short of it is that institutions were pretty damn bad back in the 70s which is what lead to states shutting them down. California bought into a community mental health model where municipalities would take responsibility for dealing with mental illness. Reagan bought into it too and turned it into an unfunded mandate. There've been a few efforts over the years to remedy the problem, but in general institutionalizing people and forcing them onto any sort of medication is very difficult to do in California.
Hydraulix989 3y ago
Did you ever experience homelessness though?
panarchy 3y ago
That's why the goal of many "affordable housing" and "housing first" initiatives is to provide a space with easy (often mandated) access to social workers, occupational therapists, and addiction therapists in addition to a place where people can sleep without being harassed and have a shower.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
100% of the visible homeless problem maybe, but there is also a homelessness problem that involve people who lack homes but aren’t ranting and pooping in the street, so they aren’t noticed (you might not even realize they are homeless if you see them in person). But this is an important point: there is a real homelessness problem in the USA, but there is also a mental illness/drug addiction problem that often co-exists with homelessness (some say that being homeless causes one to become an addict eventually, but that is controversial).

spaniard89277 3y ago

Were you born addicted to drugs? People needs treatment and a path to become useful members of society again. Affordable housing makes a lot of poor people able to save money and help their peers.

phpisthebest 3y ago
anyone that has any depth of knowelege of the homeless knows there are generally 2 types of homeless population. Transitory economic homeless, these homeless can be assisted by affordable housing, housing first, and other programs. Often these homeless of covered pretty well by current homeless programs, as they are the type of homeless people most easily identify with, and engineer programs to solve. Then there are chronic non-economic homeless. For this group it is not economic issues they face no amount of affordable, or even free housing will make them not homeless, even if you give them a home chances are they will not stay in it. CA has an outsized portion of the latter type of homeless population, and only have programs designed for the former, that is why the problem does not get better. Infact many of CA programs actively harm the latter population
- spaniard89277 3y ago
  So why other big cities in other continents have so few homeless compard to SF and LA? We do have people with mental problems here in Spain, but most don't roam the streets and end up living under a bridge. And I can assure you the Spanish institutions are not precisely brilliant dealing with problems.
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    I have no idea, but I suspect it is combination of factors. Let me ask, does Spain have and enforce loitering laws that prevent homeless of camping in front of businesses? Is this a factor in driving them to under the bridges instead of roaming the streets? Because CA prohibits the police from enforcing any of these laws, and many prosecutors refuse to charge anyone with "low level" crime. SF and LA (and CA in general) has the nicest weather, unlike other parts of the US where you have Extreme cold, extreme heat, or both in many area's LA and SF have mild temperate weather with limited rain fall, this promotes a "roaming the street" style of living.
    - spaniard89277 3y ago
      You can see homeless people in my mid-sized city. They typically sit in front of supermarkets or places where they can get money. It's always the same faces. If there's a law about that, it isn't being enforced. Most of Spain has a weather similar to CA.
- panarchy 3y ago
  It's almost like the second group has been deeply traumatized over time by a society whose only response to their mental health issues was a "fuck you" to the point that their mental health just keeps deteriorating and they become completely anti-social and actively avoid help, because fuck it why contribute back to a system that won't contribute to you. Many view the assistance as just being a pathway to get them back to contributing to a system that already failed them, not real help.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    We could always do what Finland does: admit that these people will never be productive members of society again and get them into housing with social workers on staff. Yes, it’s a constant drain, but Finland says it actually saves money doing it that way, since the services people use on the street turn out to be even more expensive. The big issue is that the USA doesn’t have a national strategy for dealing with homelessness. So any city offering programs that provide housing will become popular very quickly, with predictable results.
    - phpisthebest 3y ago
      >>The big issue is that the USA doesn’t have a national strategy for dealing with homelessness. This is likely saying "the EU does not have strategy for dealing" remember the USA stands for "United STATES" States here is the key... We are 50 independent states, and most of our problems are because we look to the incompetent and corrupt federal government to solve problems they are not constitutional empowered to solve. There is a reason we are not "America" but instead our United States we seem to be losing that foundation, to our own demise. Not every problem is a national one, and homelessness certainly is not >>We could always do what Finland does: admit that these people will never be productive members of society again and get them into housing with social workers on staff. Well we used to do that, after many many many human rights abuses the US stopped doing that, and if you look at the graphs of institutionalization, and homelessness there is a striking correlation as the rate of institutionalization drops the rate of homelessness increases. I am not sure bringing back institutionalization is going to be a popular solution

bombcar 3y ago

I wonder what the total cost of building drug cities in the middle of nowhere and just paying to have the hopelessly drugged far away.

atchoo 3y ago
Use the proper term, concentration camps. Y'all need some fences less they make their way back to civilisation. Some guards too. Once you've seen the costs y'all start debating attrition vs. euthanasia for these lost causes. Makes sense right? The losers of American capitalism have proven themselves unworthy to live along side us. No better than vermin. Extermination is the only humane act right? Fascism visibly pulsates under the skin of these dehumanising HN discussions.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  I assume if you keep providing free drugs, you don't need fences, and the metaphorical irony of that is almost beautiful. I think for branding purposes, I'd try out the term "party camps", but yes, they are quite obviously concentration camps.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    And it might better to have them official and on the books than having ad-hoc ones setup in gullies and under bridges around the city, instead. And if they're far enough away, no fences are needed.
- drewcoo 3y ago
  > Fascism visibly pulsates under the skin of these dehumanising HN discussions. Yup, and the technology that permeates everything now is designed and implemented with the same mentality, which I think is even more alarming. We've forced everyone into software Skinner boxes.

OrvalWintermute 3y ago

Baizuo white glove treatment of druggie homeless and homeless handouts are the bane of SF

ihaveajob 3y ago

"According to SAMHSA, 38% of homeless people abused alcohol while 26% abused other drugs." [1] The vast majority of homeless people do not look like what's on display near Civic Center in SF. That's just the tip of the iceberg. [1] https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/homeless https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/homeless

grumple 3y ago
Firstly, that's a lot of addicts. I was also unable to find what study they were citing on mobile, but I am extremely skeptical. In my city (Philly) we have a population of homeless heroin addicts larger than most towns in the US. Those that aren't in that cluster are generally mentally ill. At the very least, the homeless who are not mentally ill or addicts aren't the ones disrupting our lives, and they are not the cause of the problems we're talking about. This video is from two weeks ago (you can find many more like it): https://youtu.be/ipivYAHEoIM https://youtu.be/ipivYAHEoIM . It doesn't come close to capturing the scale of the neighborhood's blight but gives you an idea. The transient addicted population and people with extreme mental illnesses in Philly have been increasing in number and spread throughout the city though.

raverbashing 3y ago

Cause and consequence. A lot of people become addicts after becoming homeless

yalogin 3y ago

Let’s try not to create more homeless population. That will be a great start. Yes existing population may have problems and they need help beyond just housing, but not adding to that list is a great way to even start helping the existing homeless population

Barrin92 3y ago

Yep. As the article points out in SF this is most concentrated but honestly the US overall seems to have largely abandoned institutionalizing the mentally ill or drug addicts. Rates of drug use or mental illness among the homeless can be as high as 30-50% depending on where and how you measure it, and anyone who has ever met people in that state knows they need to be in professional treatment, by force if necessary.

inferiorhuman 3y ago
The long and the short of it is that institutions were pretty damn bad back in the 70s which is what lead to states shutting them down. California bought into a community mental health model where municipalities would take responsibility for dealing with mental illness. Reagan bought into it too and turned it into an unfunded mandate. There've been a few efforts over the years to remedy the problem, but in general institutionalizing people and forcing them onto any sort of medication is very difficult to do in California.

Hydraulix989 3y ago

Did you ever experience homelessness though?

panarchy 3y ago

That's why the goal of many "affordable housing" and "housing first" initiatives is to provide a space with easy (often mandated) access to social workers, occupational therapists, and addiction therapists in addition to a place where people can sleep without being harassed and have a shower.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

100% of the visible homeless problem maybe, but there is also a homelessness problem that involve people who lack homes but aren’t ranting and pooping in the street, so they aren’t noticed (you might not even realize they are homeless if you see them in person). But this is an important point: there is a real homelessness problem in the USA, but there is also a mental illness/drug addiction problem that often co-exists with homelessness (some say that being homeless causes one to become an addict eventually, but that is controversial).