3 ms·

I wonder if COVID and/or inflation somehow started a trend of economic slowdown that allowed emissions to slow down. It means that somehow, if we care about th

by jokoon 3y ago

I wonder if COVID and/or inflation somehow started a trend of economic slowdown that allowed emissions to slow down. It means that somehow, if we care about the environment, we may have to be against economic growth and/or good economic health.

aziaziazi 3y ago
Indeed, it did [0] but only temporary. It seems to confirm the correlation of economic growth with GHG emissions. 0 https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/covid-19-caused-only-temporary-reduction-carbon-emissions-un-report https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/covid-19...
p0w3n3d 3y ago
I think we should live humble, but I can see that companies producing things just put on green robes and say "throw out your old car and buy this one because it's much more eco". All that forcing by law to throw out old things to get something more eco-friendly is so immoral (and insincere/hypocritical - I was missing a word)
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > All that forcing by law to throw out old things to get something more eco-friendly is so immoral It's not. Local emissions are a thing, too - a new car will have way cleaner exhaust than a 20 year old beater, and an electric vehicle even less. Nitrous oxide is the big issue in urban areas, the less of it is in the air the better for those having to live near high traffic streets.
  - p0w3n3d 3y ago
    have you calculated amount of CO2 required to produce a new car? Why no one is fighting to convert those existing vehicles to electric? Why nobody produces filters for used cars? Maybe because companies do not have interest in it? And this way there is nothing change: just produce the same, but with new type of engine. Even better, because more money is earned. Meanwhile ecology is about putting down the production, but the production blossoms for some reason...
    - mschuster91 3y ago
      > Why no one is fighting to convert those existing vehicles to electric? Electric conversion kits exist, but these are relatively niche as you have to replace the entire guts of the car and have to find room for the batteries. It's way more cost-effective to buy a new, from-scratch electric vehicle. > Why nobody produces filters for used cars? Essentially every modern ICE car carries a whole portable miniaturized chemical factory with it - catalytic converters, particulate filters, systems to inject more fuel to burn off the particulate filter, adblue injection, constant real-time analysis of a whole host of different parameters... a retrofit to bring an older engine to modern emission standards is incredibly complex. You'd need to replace the entire ECU, place sensors everywhere, redesign the entire aerodynamics of the exhaust stacks so that the system doesn't collapse from accidental standing waves or pressure shockwaves, and have all of that certified to be road legal. Oh, and on top of that you need to fight for every cubic inch of space as most vehicles of the last 20 years have been designed to be as compact as possible for aerodynamic reasons. Again, not worth the effort.
      - anticensor 3y ago
        > have all of that certified to be road legal. Individual approval is a thing.
  - acdha 3y ago
    Somewhere half of the total emissions produced by a car are produced manufacturing it. This is how you can buy a gas powered car and have lower emissions than an electric F-150, Rivian, Hummer, etc. because those require so much more steel and thus manufacturing emissions. Improving local emissions is good but it doesn’t help with global emissions if you’re still buying a couple tons of metal which will sit idle 95% of the time and will on average haul 1.1 people when in use. There’s also a concern that EVs not only don’t help but actually worsen the health impacts of tire particulates. They might take away my US passport for saying it but if we want to reduce emissions the solution isn’t spending more. The best options are things like walking, biking, taking transit, and eating less beef.
    - mschuster91 3y ago
      > This is how you can buy a gas powered car and have lower emissions than an electric F-150, Rivian, Hummer, etc. because those require so much more steel and thus manufacturing emissions. That's a different problem - US consumers are (lured to) buying SUVs because of an old loophole [1] and because SUVs make really good margins so manufacturers prioritize these in advertising. Nothing, absolutely nothing makes an electric vehicle be heavier than an ICE vehicle. Comparing apples to apples, a Tesla Model S clocks in at 2255kg max dry weight, a 7-series BMW at 2525kg. [1] https://www.wired.com/story/the-us-wants-to-close-the-suv-loophole-that-supersized-cars/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-us-wants-to-close-the-suv-lo...
      - freedude 3y ago
        The dry weight is a misnomer which avoids the inconvenient facts. The Tesla requires large amounts of hard to obtain Lithium, Nickel and Cobalt. The BMW uses Aluminum and Iron which are easy to obtain by comparison. This means the Tesla requires much more emissions to produce a car of the same mass.
        mschuster91 3y ago
        > This means the Tesla requires much more emissions to produce a car of the same mass. Indeed, but during the course of its operation, the BMW will consume a ton of fossil fuels (which may be produced at harm to the environment such as with fracking) while the Tesla can be driven completely emissions-free using renewable electricity. It's a trade between upfront and recurring emissions, and given just how long cars can last (many a first-generation Tesla from over a decade ago is still on its first battery pack), I seriously prefer the former as the total lifetime emissions are what matters.

by jokoon 3y ago

aziaziazi 3y ago

Indeed, it did [0] but only temporary. It seems to confirm the correlation of economic growth with GHG emissions. 0 https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/covid-19-caused-only-temporary-reduction-carbon-emissions-un-report https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/covid-19...

p0w3n3d 3y ago

I think we should live humble, but I can see that companies producing things just put on green robes and say "throw out your old car and buy this one because it's much more eco". All that forcing by law to throw out old things to get something more eco-friendly is so immoral (and insincere/hypocritical - I was missing a word)

mschuster91 3y ago
> All that forcing by law to throw out old things to get something more eco-friendly is so immoral It's not. Local emissions are a thing, too - a new car will have way cleaner exhaust than a 20 year old beater, and an electric vehicle even less. Nitrous oxide is the big issue in urban areas, the less of it is in the air the better for those having to live near high traffic streets.
- p0w3n3d 3y ago
  have you calculated amount of CO2 required to produce a new car? Why no one is fighting to convert those existing vehicles to electric? Why nobody produces filters for used cars? Maybe because companies do not have interest in it? And this way there is nothing change: just produce the same, but with new type of engine. Even better, because more money is earned. Meanwhile ecology is about putting down the production, but the production blossoms for some reason...
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > Why no one is fighting to convert those existing vehicles to electric? Electric conversion kits exist, but these are relatively niche as you have to replace the entire guts of the car and have to find room for the batteries. It's way more cost-effective to buy a new, from-scratch electric vehicle. > Why nobody produces filters for used cars? Essentially every modern ICE car carries a whole portable miniaturized chemical factory with it - catalytic converters, particulate filters, systems to inject more fuel to burn off the particulate filter, adblue injection, constant real-time analysis of a whole host of different parameters... a retrofit to bring an older engine to modern emission standards is incredibly complex. You'd need to replace the entire ECU, place sensors everywhere, redesign the entire aerodynamics of the exhaust stacks so that the system doesn't collapse from accidental standing waves or pressure shockwaves, and have all of that certified to be road legal. Oh, and on top of that you need to fight for every cubic inch of space as most vehicles of the last 20 years have been designed to be as compact as possible for aerodynamic reasons. Again, not worth the effort.
    - anticensor 3y ago
      > have all of that certified to be road legal. Individual approval is a thing.
- acdha 3y ago
  Somewhere half of the total emissions produced by a car are produced manufacturing it. This is how you can buy a gas powered car and have lower emissions than an electric F-150, Rivian, Hummer, etc. because those require so much more steel and thus manufacturing emissions. Improving local emissions is good but it doesn’t help with global emissions if you’re still buying a couple tons of metal which will sit idle 95% of the time and will on average haul 1.1 people when in use. There’s also a concern that EVs not only don’t help but actually worsen the health impacts of tire particulates. They might take away my US passport for saying it but if we want to reduce emissions the solution isn’t spending more. The best options are things like walking, biking, taking transit, and eating less beef.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > This is how you can buy a gas powered car and have lower emissions than an electric F-150, Rivian, Hummer, etc. because those require so much more steel and thus manufacturing emissions. That's a different problem - US consumers are (lured to) buying SUVs because of an old loophole [1] and because SUVs make really good margins so manufacturers prioritize these in advertising. Nothing, absolutely nothing makes an electric vehicle be heavier than an ICE vehicle. Comparing apples to apples, a Tesla Model S clocks in at 2255kg max dry weight, a 7-series BMW at 2525kg. [1] https://www.wired.com/story/the-us-wants-to-close-the-suv-loophole-that-supersized-cars/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-us-wants-to-close-the-suv-lo...
    - freedude 3y ago
      The dry weight is a misnomer which avoids the inconvenient facts. The Tesla requires large amounts of hard to obtain Lithium, Nickel and Cobalt. The BMW uses Aluminum and Iron which are easy to obtain by comparison. This means the Tesla requires much more emissions to produce a car of the same mass.
      - mschuster91 3y ago
        > This means the Tesla requires much more emissions to produce a car of the same mass. Indeed, but during the course of its operation, the BMW will consume a ton of fossil fuels (which may be produced at harm to the environment such as with fracking) while the Tesla can be driven completely emissions-free using renewable electricity. It's a trade between upfront and recurring emissions, and given just how long cars can last (many a first-generation Tesla from over a decade ago is still on its first battery pack), I seriously prefer the former as the total lifetime emissions are what matters.