4 ms·

What makes you think the model Y isn't solid or reliable? I'm super happy with my 2021. I've also driven my Nissan Leaf since 2013 with zero shop visits outsid

by elif 3y ago

What makes you think the model Y isn't solid or reliable? I'm super happy with my 2021. I've also driven my Nissan Leaf since 2013 with zero shop visits outside of tire shops. A negative comparison on reliability with ICE just does not compute to me.

Dalewyn 3y ago
Tesla is first and foremost a technology company. Top notch tech, second-rate car. Toyota is first and foremost a car company. Top notch car, fifth-rate tech.
- elif 3y ago
  Toyota recently disassembled a model Y to study it and this is what their executives said: "Taking the skin off the Model Y, it was truly a work of art. It's unbelievable," "It's a whole different manufacturing philosophy," while another added, “We need a new platform designed as a blank-sheet EV."
  - VexorLoophole 3y ago
    Got any source for these statements?
  - kamranjon 3y ago
    Would love to read the source for this, do you have any links?
    - jkeisling 3y ago
      The source seems to be a February article from Automotive News interviewing several Toyota execs off-the-record: https://archive.is/0LZYf https://archive.is/0LZYf. The relevant quotes are midway through
  - mschild 3y ago
    And yet they seem to have massive issues https://www.thedrive.com/news/44068/over-10-percent-of-tesla-model-s-evs-fail-germanys-strict-inspection-after-3-years https://www.thedrive.com/news/44068/over-10-percent-of-tesla...
    - jsjohnst 3y ago
      How does a link about a totally different car than the one being discussed prove your point?
  - oblio 3y ago
    1. Source? 2. Toyota is behind. Check what the Chinese and Germans are doing. Though you can't really do that since most of those cars aren't sold in the US.
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      https://tech.slashdot.org/story/20/02/17/1725220/tesla-teardown-finds-electronics-6-years-ahead-of-toyota-and-vw https://tech.slashdot.org/story/20/02/17/1725220/tesla-teard... >What stands out most is Tesla's integrated central control unit, or "full self-driving computer." Also known as Hardware 3, this little piece of tech is the company's biggest weapon in the burgeoning EV market. It could end the auto industry supply chain as we know it. One stunned engineer from a major Japanese automaker examined the computer and declared, "We cannot do it."
      - oblio 3y ago
        The thing is, these PR puff pieces aka submarine articles: http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html are all everywhere for Tesla, like they are for Apple. I've seen entire sites dissect the Apple Watch or Apple mobile cameras, or Teslas. Their competitors are very comparable yet you have to hand it to Tesla, their behind the scenes PR game is through the roof.
        hef19898 3y ago
        Might very well turn out that premium OEMs big failure wasn't being late to the EV game, but failing to switch their behind the scenes marketing game from traditional print journalism, and the online versions of it, to online only, blog-like car journalism. Still digitalisation so, sure. And still linked to EVs, traditional car journalism still caters to a crowd of ICE fanatics, but overall much more a thing of marketing than engineering. For Tesla, the risk still is Musk. But they seem to be doing a good job of distancing themselves enough from his recent antics to not be hurt by them, while staying close enough to benefit from his personal brand.
        3y ago
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Well, that you need a dedicated EV plattform is such old news, all OEMs knew that since day -10. Tgat they didn't invest in one for a long had a lot of reasons, being unable to do so was none of those.
  - victor106 3y ago
    I googled for this but couldn’t find a source. Any sources you can share would be great
    - guardiangod 3y ago
      https://archive.is/PE0AZ https://archive.is/PE0AZ
    - elif 3y ago
      https://insideevs.com/news/655087/toyota-engineers-after-tesla-model-y-teardown-work-of-art/ https://insideevs.com/news/655087/toyota-engineers-after-tes...
- hef19898 3y ago
  So, cars are not technology? What about, I don't know, aircraft, power plants, ships, medical devices, laptops and phones (the hardware portion of those? And which "tech" is top notch with Tesla, self driving? Their marketing is more than just incredibly good so.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    Cars haven't changed in any fundamental manner for the better part of a century at the very least, so no cars are not so-called "technology" at this point. Not even the EV fad, because electric vehicles predate cars powered by combustion engines. What has changed is the technology behind controlling those cars. On that front, it surprises me in absolutely no way that Tesla, an information technology company, does business in ways that the car industry can't even dream of.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Seriously? Try driving a car from, say, the late 80s and one from 2020. But ok, only software is tech, got it. So when exactly is mechanical engineering no longer a STEM discipline? Seriously, that take is simple hybris of the software crowd, and totally ignoring all the hardware tech all of us use all the time. But ok, a while ago the only measure of car quality was chassis panel fitting (if there ever was a truely German over engineering nonsense, that is it), now it is the feel of the car entertainment system. To each generation their own marketing abuse of technology I guess.
      - Dalewyn 3y ago
        A car has wheels, an engine/motor(s), and a mechanism to make the engine/motor(s) turn those wheels. This hasn't changed more or less since the invention of cars, regardless electric or combustion. What has changed is the way the car is controlled. No longer are cars controlled by physically connected cables and wires that move to user input, cars are now controlled digitally by computers that respond to user and environmental input. This is where the technology is, and this is where tech companies like Tesla naturally and obviously have an edge on car companies like Toyota.
- lb1lf 3y ago
  Toyota is first and foremost a manufacturing company; they go to absurd lengths to ensure their supply chain is as robust as can be and that the product they deliver is reliable. It just happens to be cars. (And forklifts. And probably lots of other stuff, too) The downside, of course, being that most of their offerings appear quite, uh, boring. Upside? Anecdotally, my 26 year old Toyota Land Cruiser (With 300k miles on it!) has cost me less in workshop visits and parts over the 140k miles I've owned it than the missus' 2016 VW Passat has over 30k miles of ownership. And the Passat isn't a bad car at all. Has the Land Cruiser beat on fuel economy, though.
  - ThinkBeat 3y ago
    I live in Norway now. The subsidies the government introduced over a decade ago to incentive sales were pretty cray. They even exempted electric cars from road tolls. (This has been removed) has boosted the sale of electric cars enormously- Norway has the most e-cars per capita in the world. At least last time I checked. As a result, I have a lot of friends and coworkers that own Telas. Nearly all love them and would not trade. However, the build quality is subpar. Nearly all have had their car in the shop at least once. The rather extreme lack of spare parts has been a big problem for the owners. I think this has been improved for a while but I am not certain. Some had to wait months for a spare part needed to fix their problems. Primarily it has been water leaks, parts that are not "fitting together" right in interior and exterior. The second is the touchpad control system. I have wondered if this could in part be due to the extreme cold we have every now and again. But like I said the owers are still in love with their cars and would not trade it.
  - slondr 3y ago
    Boring?? My MR2 Spyder is anything but! The newer Supras and now GR Corolla also seem pretty exciting to me. Toyota is also (one of) the last manufacturer still making mid-sized trucks with manual transmissions.
throwaway2037 3y ago
I've also driven my Nissan Leaf since 2013 with zero shop visits outside of tire shops. Wah. That is crazy. The total cost of ownership for that car must be incredibly low. Think about what that means for the future of all auto mechanics. Will there be far fewer? Anecdote about a Nissan Leaf: I'll never forget being on holiday in Sri Lanka, walking through a tiny, countryside village. I was on my way to see a Buddhist temple. I was surprised to see an all-electric Nissan Leaf. It blew me away. I guess she is still driving it today!
- ciropantera 3y ago
  > Think about what that means for the future of all auto mechanics. Will there be far fewer? Definitely. This is one of the reasons why dealerships are reluctant with EVs: apparently a big chunk of their profits come from servicing the cars they sell.
  - hgsgm 3y ago
    The original "subscription model" meatspace. Sell a self destructing product there needs chronic ambiguous repairs that cost "how important is it for you to have a car?" .
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- melenaboija 3y ago
  > I guess she is still driving it today! Why do some people refer to cars with female gender?
  - chucksta 3y ago
    Could be a lot of reasons, likely came from naming ships though
  - hgsgm 3y ago
    Cars don't drive cars; people drive cars.
sroussey 3y ago
It’s funny because when a Tesla is given to a spouse it has lots of issues, but tech bros never seem to notice. Which, honestly, can be said for lots of things.
adevopsguy 3y ago
My in-laws also have a Nissan Leaf from 2013. It lost some amount of capacity but there has never been a problem with it. It is crazy.
runeks 3y ago
> I've also driven my Nissan Leaf since 2013 with zero shop visits outside of tire shops. How many miles/kilometers have you driven?
- elif 3y ago
  it is at 75k miles including sitting off charger for 8 months while i was traveling. battery still at 82-85% of original capacity.
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
There was some recent stats released on this from a German org now that the cars have been out for long enough to get good data. EVs did really well. One surprise finding was that a major part of the EV faults were due to the 12v lead acid battery that some EVs (like Tesla) are now shipping lithium replacements for. https://insideevs.com/news/667690/tesla-model-3-reliability-adac-index-2022/amp/ https://insideevs.com/news/667690/tesla-model-3-reliability-...

by elif 3y ago

Dalewyn 3y ago

Tesla is first and foremost a technology company. Top notch tech, second-rate car. Toyota is first and foremost a car company. Top notch car, fifth-rate tech.

elif 3y ago
Toyota recently disassembled a model Y to study it and this is what their executives said: "Taking the skin off the Model Y, it was truly a work of art. It's unbelievable," "It's a whole different manufacturing philosophy," while another added, “We need a new platform designed as a blank-sheet EV."
- VexorLoophole 3y ago
  Got any source for these statements?
- kamranjon 3y ago
  Would love to read the source for this, do you have any links?
  - jkeisling 3y ago
    The source seems to be a February article from Automotive News interviewing several Toyota execs off-the-record: https://archive.is/0LZYf https://archive.is/0LZYf. The relevant quotes are midway through
- mschild 3y ago
  And yet they seem to have massive issues https://www.thedrive.com/news/44068/over-10-percent-of-tesla-model-s-evs-fail-germanys-strict-inspection-after-3-years https://www.thedrive.com/news/44068/over-10-percent-of-tesla...
  - jsjohnst 3y ago
    How does a link about a totally different car than the one being discussed prove your point?
- oblio 3y ago
  1. Source? 2. Toyota is behind. Check what the Chinese and Germans are doing. Though you can't really do that since most of those cars aren't sold in the US.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    https://tech.slashdot.org/story/20/02/17/1725220/tesla-teardown-finds-electronics-6-years-ahead-of-toyota-and-vw https://tech.slashdot.org/story/20/02/17/1725220/tesla-teard... >What stands out most is Tesla's integrated central control unit, or "full self-driving computer." Also known as Hardware 3, this little piece of tech is the company's biggest weapon in the burgeoning EV market. It could end the auto industry supply chain as we know it. One stunned engineer from a major Japanese automaker examined the computer and declared, "We cannot do it."
    - oblio 3y ago
      The thing is, these PR puff pieces aka submarine articles: http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html are all everywhere for Tesla, like they are for Apple. I've seen entire sites dissect the Apple Watch or Apple mobile cameras, or Teslas. Their competitors are very comparable yet you have to hand it to Tesla, their behind the scenes PR game is through the roof.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        Might very well turn out that premium OEMs big failure wasn't being late to the EV game, but failing to switch their behind the scenes marketing game from traditional print journalism, and the online versions of it, to online only, blog-like car journalism. Still digitalisation so, sure. And still linked to EVs, traditional car journalism still caters to a crowd of ICE fanatics, but overall much more a thing of marketing than engineering. For Tesla, the risk still is Musk. But they seem to be doing a good job of distancing themselves enough from his recent antics to not be hurt by them, while staying close enough to benefit from his personal brand.
        3y ago
- hef19898 3y ago
  Well, that you need a dedicated EV plattform is such old news, all OEMs knew that since day -10. Tgat they didn't invest in one for a long had a lot of reasons, being unable to do so was none of those.
- victor106 3y ago
  I googled for this but couldn’t find a source. Any sources you can share would be great
  - guardiangod 3y ago
    https://archive.is/PE0AZ https://archive.is/PE0AZ
  - elif 3y ago
    https://insideevs.com/news/655087/toyota-engineers-after-tesla-model-y-teardown-work-of-art/ https://insideevs.com/news/655087/toyota-engineers-after-tes...
hef19898 3y ago
So, cars are not technology? What about, I don't know, aircraft, power plants, ships, medical devices, laptops and phones (the hardware portion of those? And which "tech" is top notch with Tesla, self driving? Their marketing is more than just incredibly good so.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  Cars haven't changed in any fundamental manner for the better part of a century at the very least, so no cars are not so-called "technology" at this point. Not even the EV fad, because electric vehicles predate cars powered by combustion engines. What has changed is the technology behind controlling those cars. On that front, it surprises me in absolutely no way that Tesla, an information technology company, does business in ways that the car industry can't even dream of.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Seriously? Try driving a car from, say, the late 80s and one from 2020. But ok, only software is tech, got it. So when exactly is mechanical engineering no longer a STEM discipline? Seriously, that take is simple hybris of the software crowd, and totally ignoring all the hardware tech all of us use all the time. But ok, a while ago the only measure of car quality was chassis panel fitting (if there ever was a truely German over engineering nonsense, that is it), now it is the feel of the car entertainment system. To each generation their own marketing abuse of technology I guess.
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      A car has wheels, an engine/motor(s), and a mechanism to make the engine/motor(s) turn those wheels. This hasn't changed more or less since the invention of cars, regardless electric or combustion. What has changed is the way the car is controlled. No longer are cars controlled by physically connected cables and wires that move to user input, cars are now controlled digitally by computers that respond to user and environmental input. This is where the technology is, and this is where tech companies like Tesla naturally and obviously have an edge on car companies like Toyota.
lb1lf 3y ago
Toyota is first and foremost a manufacturing company; they go to absurd lengths to ensure their supply chain is as robust as can be and that the product they deliver is reliable. It just happens to be cars. (And forklifts. And probably lots of other stuff, too) The downside, of course, being that most of their offerings appear quite, uh, boring. Upside? Anecdotally, my 26 year old Toyota Land Cruiser (With 300k miles on it!) has cost me less in workshop visits and parts over the 140k miles I've owned it than the missus' 2016 VW Passat has over 30k miles of ownership. And the Passat isn't a bad car at all. Has the Land Cruiser beat on fuel economy, though.
- ThinkBeat 3y ago
  I live in Norway now. The subsidies the government introduced over a decade ago to incentive sales were pretty cray. They even exempted electric cars from road tolls. (This has been removed) has boosted the sale of electric cars enormously- Norway has the most e-cars per capita in the world. At least last time I checked. As a result, I have a lot of friends and coworkers that own Telas. Nearly all love them and would not trade. However, the build quality is subpar. Nearly all have had their car in the shop at least once. The rather extreme lack of spare parts has been a big problem for the owners. I think this has been improved for a while but I am not certain. Some had to wait months for a spare part needed to fix their problems. Primarily it has been water leaks, parts that are not "fitting together" right in interior and exterior. The second is the touchpad control system. I have wondered if this could in part be due to the extreme cold we have every now and again. But like I said the owers are still in love with their cars and would not trade it.
- slondr 3y ago
  Boring?? My MR2 Spyder is anything but! The newer Supras and now GR Corolla also seem pretty exciting to me. Toyota is also (one of) the last manufacturer still making mid-sized trucks with manual transmissions.

throwaway2037 3y ago

I've also driven my Nissan Leaf since 2013 with zero shop visits outside of tire shops. Wah. That is crazy. The total cost of ownership for that car must be incredibly low. Think about what that means for the future of all auto mechanics. Will there be far fewer? Anecdote about a Nissan Leaf: I'll never forget being on holiday in Sri Lanka, walking through a tiny, countryside village. I was on my way to see a Buddhist temple. I was surprised to see an all-electric Nissan Leaf. It blew me away. I guess she is still driving it today!

ciropantera 3y ago
> Think about what that means for the future of all auto mechanics. Will there be far fewer? Definitely. This is one of the reasons why dealerships are reluctant with EVs: apparently a big chunk of their profits come from servicing the cars they sell.
- hgsgm 3y ago
  The original "subscription model" meatspace. Sell a self destructing product there needs chronic ambiguous repairs that cost "how important is it for you to have a car?" .
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
melenaboija 3y ago
> I guess she is still driving it today! Why do some people refer to cars with female gender?
- chucksta 3y ago
  Could be a lot of reasons, likely came from naming ships though
- hgsgm 3y ago
  Cars don't drive cars; people drive cars.

sroussey 3y ago

It’s funny because when a Tesla is given to a spouse it has lots of issues, but tech bros never seem to notice. Which, honestly, can be said for lots of things.

adevopsguy 3y ago

My in-laws also have a Nissan Leaf from 2013. It lost some amount of capacity but there has never been a problem with it. It is crazy.

runeks 3y ago

> I've also driven my Nissan Leaf since 2013 with zero shop visits outside of tire shops. How many miles/kilometers have you driven?

elif 3y ago
it is at 75k miles including sitting off charger for 8 months while i was traveling. battery still at 82-85% of original capacity.

ZeroGravitas 3y ago

There was some recent stats released on this from a German org now that the cars have been out for long enough to get good data. EVs did really well. One surprise finding was that a major part of the EV faults were due to the 12v lead acid battery that some EVs (like Tesla) are now shipping lithium replacements for. https://insideevs.com/news/667690/tesla-model-3-reliability-adac-index-2022/amp/ https://insideevs.com/news/667690/tesla-model-3-reliability-...