4 ms·

Even if you total up all the models from other manufacturers, it still doesn't touch the model Y or model 3 for sheer volume. Add all 4 Tesla models up and it'

Even if you total up all the models from other manufacturers, it still doesn't touch the model Y or model 3 for sheer volume. Add all 4 Tesla models up and it's a bloodbath. (This is in the markets people on HN probably care about, North America and Europe. China is another matter.)

ummonk 3y ago
Why would HN people not care about sales in China?
- resolutebat 3y ago
  The Chinese car market is full of brands that don't even try to sell their cars outside China. But it's noteworthy that Tesla is a top seller there as well, second only to local juggernaut BYD in EVs. https://carnewschina.com/2023/02/13/ranking-of-china-market-best-selling-cars-in-january-volkswagen-first-byd-is-the-most-popular-ev/ https://carnewschina.com/2023/02/13/ranking-of-china-market-...
- contrarian1234 3y ago
  Because they live in an alternate dimension with a peculiar market that's kinda bubbled off. China is also like a decade ahead in electrification. All scooters in large cities have been electric for over a decade (its a weird time warp coming to taiwan and experiencing the stench of scooter on your morning commute) They had a fully electric taxi service about 7 years ago. Inside the city medium size trucks (for delivering merchandise to stores) are all electric. They have tons of local brands that produce electric consumer cars However the domestic market is ginormous and they only make weak attempts at going global. The international market is fragmentary and you can be arbitrarily extrajudicially curb stomped with tariffs or outright bands due to anti China hysteria
  - waffles4life 3y ago
    Is Hackernews just getting overrun by pro-Xi commentators that make up whatever they want now? Chinese air pollution is ridiculous, and it's primarily because of their massive amount of vehicle emissions: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6526014/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6526014/
    - robocat 3y ago
      That link points out that air pollution isn’t “primarily” due to vehicle emissions except in some cities. On both regional and national scales, vehicle emission has been identified as one of the most important contributors to air pollution in most cities in China (Gong et al., 2017; Wang et al., 2010; Wu et al., 2016), and has even surpassed other contamination sources in some cities.
    - Prickle 3y ago
      "Lots of air pollution" and "lots of electric vehicles" can be true in the same sentence. Vehicles are not the only source of severe air pollution.
      - mrpopo 3y ago
        * EVs are not a solution to air pollution, most air pollution from modern cars is from brakes and tyres. * OTOH, China is really ahead in battery-powered 2-wheelers, that replace the old scooter fleet, and that ought to do something. * Still, China's air pollution is for the main part due to massive use of coal power, incinerators, and desertification bringing sand from Gobi desert. The linked study from grand-parent doesn't even mention any of these.
    - dang 3y ago
      HN's community is large and therefore divided on divisive topics. That's more than enough to explain why there's diversity of opinion on, for example, geopolitical topics. Everyone needs to abide by the rules in the presence of such topics so that this place does not end up burning itself to a crisp. Therefore, please don't post to HN like you did here—instead, please make your substantive points respectfully and thoughtfully. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    > All scooters in large cities have been electric for over a decade A lot longer than a decade. But it depends on the city. Beijing electrified earlier (like 2004 or so), Shanghai followed, then you have smaller cities where gas was allowed for much longer. > They had a fully electric taxi service about 7 years ago. What city? Surely not Beijing. Maybe Shenzhen? > Inside the city medium size trucks (for delivering merchandise to stores) are all electric. I'm beginning to doubt you here. The delivery trikes are electric. But the small trucks that deliver merchandise to stores? Definitely not the blue trucks that are only allowed inside the 5th ring at night and cause air quality to tank after midnight. > The international market is fragmentary and you can be arbitrarily extrajudicially curb stomped with tariffs or outright bands due to anti China hysteria China's market is limited by their own protectionism. It is hard to tell someone to "open up" when you aren't willing to do the same yourself.
    - contrarian1234 3y ago
      "What city? Surely not Beijing. Maybe Shenzhen?" As you've caught on, I'm a bit fuzzy on the dates.. But I feel I was riding Caocao taxis in Chengdu around then? "Definitely not the blue trucks that are only allowed inside the 5th ring at night and cause air quality to tank after midnight" Yeah you're right! I was off the mark there. There are smog monsters at night thats for sure. Forgot about those haha. During the day the smaller refrigerated trucks were electric though As to your last point.. It's not a simple topic, but protectionism in theory only hurts your own market and your own consumers. Reciprocity is kinda irrelevant
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        I haven’t been to chengdu since 2005 so you might be right.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
croes 3y ago
The BMW group sold 588,138 cars in 2023. Where is that a bloodbath?
- option 3y ago
  of which how many were electric?
  - croes 3y ago
    Does it matter to BMW?
    - oblio 3y ago
      BMW is fine. They already have a purely EV platform and are selling something like 10 BEV models...
    - deadmutex 3y ago
      I think the point is that electric cars the digital cameras of today. Consumers are shifting to EVs faster than expected, and it is catching some car makers (e.g. Toyota) flat footed.
      - Doctor_Fegg 3y ago
        > I think the point is that electric cars the digital cameras of today. Enjoyed a brief heyday but rapidly faded as people moved on to a more convenient device?
        hnav 3y ago
        precisely, with waymo partnering with uber you know that personal car ownership with all the headaches that entails is drawing to a close
        ericjmorey 3y ago
        If everyone wants to rent the vehicle at the same time? How is renting more convenient than ownership of an autonomous vehicle?
Thlom 3y ago
Norway is the most mature EV market in the world, and looking at 2022 numbers Tesla sold the most cars, but VW is not far behind. 21300 for Tesla (most model Y) vs 20183 for VW (most Id.4), of which the vast majority (like 90% or more) were EVs. So Tesla is strong, but they are not crushing the market.

ummonk 3y ago

Why would HN people not care about sales in China?

resolutebat 3y ago
The Chinese car market is full of brands that don't even try to sell their cars outside China. But it's noteworthy that Tesla is a top seller there as well, second only to local juggernaut BYD in EVs. https://carnewschina.com/2023/02/13/ranking-of-china-market-best-selling-cars-in-january-volkswagen-first-byd-is-the-most-popular-ev/ https://carnewschina.com/2023/02/13/ranking-of-china-market-...
contrarian1234 3y ago
Because they live in an alternate dimension with a peculiar market that's kinda bubbled off. China is also like a decade ahead in electrification. All scooters in large cities have been electric for over a decade (its a weird time warp coming to taiwan and experiencing the stench of scooter on your morning commute) They had a fully electric taxi service about 7 years ago. Inside the city medium size trucks (for delivering merchandise to stores) are all electric. They have tons of local brands that produce electric consumer cars However the domestic market is ginormous and they only make weak attempts at going global. The international market is fragmentary and you can be arbitrarily extrajudicially curb stomped with tariffs or outright bands due to anti China hysteria
- waffles4life 3y ago
  Is Hackernews just getting overrun by pro-Xi commentators that make up whatever they want now? Chinese air pollution is ridiculous, and it's primarily because of their massive amount of vehicle emissions: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6526014/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6526014/
  - robocat 3y ago
    That link points out that air pollution isn’t “primarily” due to vehicle emissions except in some cities. On both regional and national scales, vehicle emission has been identified as one of the most important contributors to air pollution in most cities in China (Gong et al., 2017; Wang et al., 2010; Wu et al., 2016), and has even surpassed other contamination sources in some cities.
  - Prickle 3y ago
    "Lots of air pollution" and "lots of electric vehicles" can be true in the same sentence. Vehicles are not the only source of severe air pollution.
    - mrpopo 3y ago
      * EVs are not a solution to air pollution, most air pollution from modern cars is from brakes and tyres. * OTOH, China is really ahead in battery-powered 2-wheelers, that replace the old scooter fleet, and that ought to do something. * Still, China's air pollution is for the main part due to massive use of coal power, incinerators, and desertification bringing sand from Gobi desert. The linked study from grand-parent doesn't even mention any of these.
  - dang 3y ago
    HN's community is large and therefore divided on divisive topics. That's more than enough to explain why there's diversity of opinion on, for example, geopolitical topics. Everyone needs to abide by the rules in the presence of such topics so that this place does not end up burning itself to a crisp. Therefore, please don't post to HN like you did here—instead, please make your substantive points respectfully and thoughtfully. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  > All scooters in large cities have been electric for over a decade A lot longer than a decade. But it depends on the city. Beijing electrified earlier (like 2004 or so), Shanghai followed, then you have smaller cities where gas was allowed for much longer. > They had a fully electric taxi service about 7 years ago. What city? Surely not Beijing. Maybe Shenzhen? > Inside the city medium size trucks (for delivering merchandise to stores) are all electric. I'm beginning to doubt you here. The delivery trikes are electric. But the small trucks that deliver merchandise to stores? Definitely not the blue trucks that are only allowed inside the 5th ring at night and cause air quality to tank after midnight. > The international market is fragmentary and you can be arbitrarily extrajudicially curb stomped with tariffs or outright bands due to anti China hysteria China's market is limited by their own protectionism. It is hard to tell someone to "open up" when you aren't willing to do the same yourself.
  - contrarian1234 3y ago
    "What city? Surely not Beijing. Maybe Shenzhen?" As you've caught on, I'm a bit fuzzy on the dates.. But I feel I was riding Caocao taxis in Chengdu around then? "Definitely not the blue trucks that are only allowed inside the 5th ring at night and cause air quality to tank after midnight" Yeah you're right! I was off the mark there. There are smog monsters at night thats for sure. Forgot about those haha. During the day the smaller refrigerated trucks were electric though As to your last point.. It's not a simple topic, but protectionism in theory only hurts your own market and your own consumers. Reciprocity is kinda irrelevant
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      I haven’t been to chengdu since 2005 so you might be right.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

croes 3y ago

The BMW group sold 588,138 cars in 2023. Where is that a bloodbath?

option 3y ago
of which how many were electric?
- croes 3y ago
  Does it matter to BMW?
  - oblio 3y ago
    BMW is fine. They already have a purely EV platform and are selling something like 10 BEV models...
  - deadmutex 3y ago
    I think the point is that electric cars the digital cameras of today. Consumers are shifting to EVs faster than expected, and it is catching some car makers (e.g. Toyota) flat footed.
    - Doctor_Fegg 3y ago
      > I think the point is that electric cars the digital cameras of today. Enjoyed a brief heyday but rapidly faded as people moved on to a more convenient device?
      - hnav 3y ago
        precisely, with waymo partnering with uber you know that personal car ownership with all the headaches that entails is drawing to a close
        ericjmorey 3y ago
        If everyone wants to rent the vehicle at the same time? How is renting more convenient than ownership of an autonomous vehicle?

Thlom 3y ago

Norway is the most mature EV market in the world, and looking at 2022 numbers Tesla sold the most cars, but VW is not far behind. 21300 for Tesla (most model Y) vs 20183 for VW (most Id.4), of which the vast majority (like 90% or more) were EVs. So Tesla is strong, but they are not crushing the market.