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They had a 10 year head start on EVs (well, Hybrids), with the Prius and blew it. Worse: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/toyota-bet-wrong-on-evs-so-now-it

They had a 10 year head start on EVs (well, Hybrids), with the Prius and blew it. Worse: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/toyota-bet-wrong-on-evs-so-now-its-lobbying-to-slow-the-transition/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/toyota-bet-wrong-on-evs...

adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
the Prius prime is a legitimately pretty great hybrid, but it took them a shocking long time to get there.
- borissk 3y ago
  A hybrid car is a very complicated machine - more so than an EV, a turbo petrol or a diesel.
  - toast0 3y ago
    Turbos aren't very simple. The 'toyota synergy' style hybrid transaxle is a whole lot less complicated than most transaxles too. ICE cars already had an electric starter motor, so it's just adding a second electric motor and some batteries and a charging circuit. The benefits are clear. Immense range, lower fuel consumption, longer maintenance intervals vs an ICE only, etc.
    - nikau 3y ago
      turbos are cheap and reliable, its very rare to see blown turbos on maintained non-modified cars with the exception of BMW putting them in the valley of the V8 engine and other idiotic designs. Most turbo failures are from not doing oil changes on time or crappy modified ECU tunes.
      - adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
        right, but so are batteries and electric motors. hybrids give you a modest engine simplification and better efficiency at the cost of a second simpler type of engine.
      - nimish 3y ago
        ICE engines are incredible feats of engineering. Meanwhile, you need 2, maybe 3 parts to make an electric motor. They are dead simple. Even the control is just an inverter drive. A turbo has about as many parts as the entire electric drivetrain. There's just a lot less to go wrong and you don't need lubrication or maintenance for solid-state non-moving parts.
        nikau 3y ago
        I think maybe you are understating the complexity as "just an inverter drive" - highlighted by the fact so many telsas have had drive unit replacements.
  - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
    The Prius has been around for over 20 years. They've had PLENTY of time to figure out how to make it not suck.
  - fomine3 3y ago
    It's advantage for Toyota. They really should pushed PHEVs earlier like 2015, before Tesla M3 was sold.
- _hypx 3y ago
  The ability to go fast does not make it a good cars. In fact, this is mistake that many US carmakers made. As Toyota focused on reliability, their faster competitors ultimately ended up being abandoned since nothing turns away customers like a dead car.
shusaku 3y ago
How much does this really matter? I feel like Tesla is strong in the market because they figured out how to market an EV as a sports car. Toyota was never going to do that.
- nradov 3y ago
  Why not? Toyota sells sports cars.
  - Hamuko 3y ago
    Toyota's sports cars actually show pretty well at how adverse they are to making them. The Supra has a BMW engine, a BMW gearbox and a BMW interior with a BMW infotainment system, while the Toyota 86 is a joint project between Toyota and Subaru, with a Subaru engine and built in Subaru's plant.
    - Phrodo_00 3y ago
      What about the Corolla GR and Yaris GR, though?
      - Hamuko 3y ago
        They’re definitely Toyota cars but not really sports cars. They’re just hot versions of the Corolla and Yaris, which are definitely not sports cars. Unless we also define the Tesla Model S Plaid, BMW M3 and the Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG as sports cars.
        Phrodo_00 3y ago
        The Yaris GR is not a hot version of the Yaris. It's designed as a homologation special with a new chasis (there's no regular 3 door Yaris) and engine. Calling it a hot yaris is a bit like calling the Renault 5 Turbo a hot Renault 5. The Corolla is closer to a hot Corolla as it uses the same chasis.
    - deleted 3y ago
topkai22 3y ago
Even worse is they had multiple generations of a RAV4 EV, which they stopped manufacturing in 2014. They made it along side Tesla in the same plant that now makes Model Ys. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
- MH15 3y ago
  Funny that now they have the Rav4 Prime, which by some metrics is a top contender in the plugin-hybrid space.

adgjlsfhk1 3y ago

the Prius prime is a legitimately pretty great hybrid, but it took them a shocking long time to get there.

borissk 3y ago
A hybrid car is a very complicated machine - more so than an EV, a turbo petrol or a diesel.
- toast0 3y ago
  Turbos aren't very simple. The 'toyota synergy' style hybrid transaxle is a whole lot less complicated than most transaxles too. ICE cars already had an electric starter motor, so it's just adding a second electric motor and some batteries and a charging circuit. The benefits are clear. Immense range, lower fuel consumption, longer maintenance intervals vs an ICE only, etc.
  - nikau 3y ago
    turbos are cheap and reliable, its very rare to see blown turbos on maintained non-modified cars with the exception of BMW putting them in the valley of the V8 engine and other idiotic designs. Most turbo failures are from not doing oil changes on time or crappy modified ECU tunes.
    - adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
      right, but so are batteries and electric motors. hybrids give you a modest engine simplification and better efficiency at the cost of a second simpler type of engine.
    - nimish 3y ago
      ICE engines are incredible feats of engineering. Meanwhile, you need 2, maybe 3 parts to make an electric motor. They are dead simple. Even the control is just an inverter drive. A turbo has about as many parts as the entire electric drivetrain. There's just a lot less to go wrong and you don't need lubrication or maintenance for solid-state non-moving parts.
      - nikau 3y ago
        I think maybe you are understating the complexity as "just an inverter drive" - highlighted by the fact so many telsas have had drive unit replacements.
- Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
  The Prius has been around for over 20 years. They've had PLENTY of time to figure out how to make it not suck.
- fomine3 3y ago
  It's advantage for Toyota. They really should pushed PHEVs earlier like 2015, before Tesla M3 was sold.
_hypx 3y ago
The ability to go fast does not make it a good cars. In fact, this is mistake that many US carmakers made. As Toyota focused on reliability, their faster competitors ultimately ended up being abandoned since nothing turns away customers like a dead car.

shusaku 3y ago

How much does this really matter? I feel like Tesla is strong in the market because they figured out how to market an EV as a sports car. Toyota was never going to do that.

nradov 3y ago
Why not? Toyota sells sports cars.
- Hamuko 3y ago
  Toyota's sports cars actually show pretty well at how adverse they are to making them. The Supra has a BMW engine, a BMW gearbox and a BMW interior with a BMW infotainment system, while the Toyota 86 is a joint project between Toyota and Subaru, with a Subaru engine and built in Subaru's plant.
  - Phrodo_00 3y ago
    What about the Corolla GR and Yaris GR, though?
    - Hamuko 3y ago
      They’re definitely Toyota cars but not really sports cars. They’re just hot versions of the Corolla and Yaris, which are definitely not sports cars. Unless we also define the Tesla Model S Plaid, BMW M3 and the Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG as sports cars.
      - Phrodo_00 3y ago
        The Yaris GR is not a hot version of the Yaris. It's designed as a homologation special with a new chasis (there's no regular 3 door Yaris) and engine. Calling it a hot yaris is a bit like calling the Renault 5 Turbo a hot Renault 5. The Corolla is closer to a hot Corolla as it uses the same chasis.
  - deleted 3y ago

topkai22 3y ago

Even worse is they had multiple generations of a RAV4 EV, which they stopped manufacturing in 2014. They made it along side Tesla in the same plant that now makes Model Ys. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV

MH15 3y ago
Funny that now they have the Rav4 Prime, which by some metrics is a top contender in the plugin-hybrid space.