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Since other car makers are trying to cover the market by diversifying their model lineup, this is hardly surprising. I mean, just take BMW, despite seemingly no
by newaccount74 3y ago
Since other car makers are trying to cover the market by diversifying their model lineup, this is hardly surprising. I mean, just take BMW, despite seemingly not taking EVs seriously at first, they already have more different EV models to choose from than Tesla. So even if BMW would overtake Tesla in total EV sales, the Model Y would probably still get to keep the "best selling car" title...
- oittaa 3y agoSo it's not a true scotsman?
- justrealist 3y agoI'm only counting the BMW i4, iX, i7, and i5, vs the Tesla S, 3, X, and Y. Maybe I'm missing something, but the lineups seem comparable.
- croes 3y agoYou are missing the combustion engine models. There many people that still prefer them over EV. BMW group sold 588,138 units in 2023 and most weren't EV.
- kemiller 3y agoEven if you total up all the models from other manufacturers, it still doesn't touch the model Y or model 3 for sheer volume. Add all 4 Tesla models up and it's a bloodbath. (This is in the markets people on HN probably care about, North America and Europe. China is another matter.)
- ummonk 3y agoWhy would HN people not care about sales in China?
- resolutebat 3y agoThe Chinese car market is full of brands that don't even try to sell their cars outside China. But it's noteworthy that Tesla is a top seller there as well, second only to local juggernaut BYD in EVs. https://carnewschina.com/2023/02/13/ranking-of-china-market-best-selling-cars-in-january-volkswagen-first-byd-is-the-most-popular-ev/ https://carnewschina.com/2023/02/13/ranking-of-china-market-...
- contrarian1234 3y agoBecause they live in an alternate dimension with a peculiar market that's kinda bubbled off. China is also like a decade ahead in electrification. All scooters in large cities have been electric for over a decade (its a weird time warp coming to taiwan and experiencing the stench of scooter on your morning commute) They had a fully electric taxi service about 7 years ago. Inside the city medium size trucks (for delivering merchandise to stores) are all electric. They have tons of local brands that produce electric consumer cars However the domestic market is ginormous and they only make weak attempts at going global. The international market is fragmentary and you can be arbitrarily extrajudicially curb stomped with tariffs or outright bands due to anti China hysteria
- waffles4life 3y agoIs Hackernews just getting overrun by pro-Xi commentators that make up whatever they want now? Chinese air pollution is ridiculous, and it's primarily because of their massive amount of vehicle emissions: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6526014/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6526014/
- robocat 3y agoThat link points out that air pollution isn’t “primarily” due to vehicle emissions except in some cities. On both regional and national scales, vehicle emission has been identified as one of the most important contributors to air pollution in most cities in China (Gong et al., 2017; Wang et al., 2010; Wu et al., 2016), and has even surpassed other contamination sources in some cities.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- croes 3y agoThe BMW group sold 588,138 cars in 2023. Where is that a bloodbath?
- option 3y agoof which how many were electric?
- croes 3y agoDoes it matter to BMW?
- oblio 3y agoBMW is fine. They already have a purely EV platform and are selling something like 10 BEV models...
- deadmutex 3y agoI think the point is that electric cars the digital cameras of today. Consumers are shifting to EVs faster than expected, and it is catching some car makers (e.g. Toyota) flat footed.
- Doctor_Fegg 3y ago> I think the point is that electric cars the digital cameras of today. Enjoyed a brief heyday but rapidly faded as people moved on to a more convenient device?
- hnav 3y agoprecisely, with waymo partnering with uber you know that personal car ownership with all the headaches that entails is drawing to a close
- ericjmorey 3y agoIf everyone wants to rent the vehicle at the same time? How is renting more convenient than ownership of an autonomous vehicle?
- Thlom 3y agoNorway is the most mature EV market in the world, and looking at 2022 numbers Tesla sold the most cars, but VW is not far behind. 21300 for Tesla (most model Y) vs 20183 for VW (most Id.4), of which the vast majority (like 90% or more) were EVs. So Tesla is strong, but they are not crushing the market.
- sixQuarks 3y agoI was wondering how HN was going to spin this. The problem with this argument is that the Model Y by itself outsold the entire BMW electric lineup combined. In fact, 4 times the entire combined amount.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 3y agoThis is goalpost-shifting from the title, which doesn’t limit the comparison to electric cars.
- croes 3y agoMaybe because the typical BMW customer prefers combustion engines. Look at the overall sales not just EV
- vardump 3y agoTesla sold 1,247,146 cars in 2022. This year somewhere between 1.6M - 2.0M. Last year BMW sold about 2.4M cars, so Tesla is quickly catching up in terms of numbers.
- fomine3 3y agoIt's better to just compare brand-to-brand EV sales, rather than per model. Only Tesla can sell same model so much. I wonder will people finally bored with too many same Tesla running on the road, and Tesla start expanding their lineup like Volkswagen, or people accept it like iPhone (have a dressing case like iPhone?).
- youngtaff 3y agoIMV, apart from the Model S Tesla’s are ugly cars The Y looks like an over inflated balloon (BMW, Mercedes, Mini and others have the same issue with some of their models) And the 3 just doesn’t look like anyone designed the front end — the angle of the junction between the bonnet (hood) and the windscreen is wrong, and the front grill just looks like someone forgot it needed designing
- ryantgtg 3y agoBut if I take BMW, I see they currently have three all electric models on offer: iX, i7, i4.
- croes 3y agoMaybe because BMW customers still prefer combustion engines.
- speedgoose 3y agoIt depends on the market. BMW doesn’t sell much ICE cars anymore in Norway, a western market considered a few years ahead the other north European markets.
- pnw 3y agoBecause Norway heavily subsidized EV with exemption from the 25% VAT tax as well as perks like free parking. Which is ironic given they are basically the Nordic Saudi Arabia.
- olavgg 3y agoYou have it the wrong way. ICE cars has always been heavily taxed, especially more powerful ICE cars are 2x more expensive in Norway than in EU. EV's just have no tax and only VAT added above 45k USD
- Moldoteck 3y agoNot quite. Fuel is overtaxed there and very expensive, that's a bit different from Saudis,but combined with other factors mentioned by you and the fact most of their energy is green hydro, it makes sense to them to ditch ice when there's option to buy a new car
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoNorway would much rather leverage their abundant hydro for domestic personal transport needs and just export their oil instead. That really isn’t ironic, just practical.
- dzhiurgis 3y agoTesla is about to overtake BMW by car sales, not just EV But you are quite right. Given Tesla's mission and recent discontinuation of X and S and in RHD markets it wouldn't be surprised if they eventually killed them altogether. Let the premium makers like BMW, MB, Lucid focus on a niche luxury markets; use Tesla's time to make cheaper EVs.
- jillesvangurp 3y agoWhat sets Tesla apart right now is their manufacturing capability. They are out-competing everyone else right now on cost and scale. That's the difference between having really juicy margins on their cars produced large volume and the likes of BMW, Ford, and others actually selling EVs at a loss in comparatively tiny volumes. Every time Tesla lowers their pricing, everybody else takes a big hit. And while Tesla takes the crown here, they aren't the only new kid on the block that is extremely successful in the EV market. The likes of BYD and other Chinese manufacturers aren't far behind and are following a similar strategy to Tesla. Cheap Chinese exports are going to do similar things to the car industry that the Japanese car industry did in the eighties. The likes of Toyota of course were part of that move and it decimated the rest of the industry. That looks like it might happen again. Except this time it's Chinese manufacturers leading here; and Tesla of course. The game right now isn't producing more concept cars, quick and dirty ICE conversions, or yet another over priced premium SUV ev but actually tackling the less premium mass market segment. This is only possible after companies nail cost and efficiency. And most of them are nowhere close to doing that. Tesla is ramping up to start selling millions of more modestly priced cars. BYD is already shipping loads of those in China. They are ready now. Toyota particularly is far behind. The only EVs they have in the market are actually made by BYD. These are Toyota in name only. It's a BYD with a Toyota sticker slapped on. Reason: until they replaced their CEO recently, they were stubbornly pursuing things like hybrids and hydrogen cars and miscalculating how long they had to make that work. EVs priced around 20-30K$ are going to be a big problem for Toyota. Most of their remaining ICE market is at or above that price point and EVs with lower cost of ownership and a lower price tag can do some serious damage to that market. That's why they are partnering with BYD while they are figuring that out.
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoIs Toyota BYD’s JV partner in China? I think the BYD taxi I rode in was based off a Camry body, but it seems their JV partner is GAC, so it isn’t clear how that came to be.
- simondotau 3y agoPlenty of China-only car models are more than "inspired" from existing vehicle models.
- caf 3y agoIt's easy to say "it's hardly surprising" now, but if you'd predicted this 4 or 5 years ago, plenty of people would have been surprised.
- LewisVerstappen 3y agoIf you spent 5 mins looking at the data, you’d realize you’re completely wrong lol.