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The War in Ukraine Was Provoked – and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace

mikece 3y ago
If it was my call to make I would pull the US out of NATO and lobby for it to be dissolved. If the EU wants to make their own military pact then they are free to do so an invite anyone they want to join their club. Let's try to get back to the Monroe Doctrine, shall we?
- ethbr0 3y ago
  The one where the US claimed hegemony over the western hemisphere?
  - mikece 3y ago
    It could be viewed as hegemony or "don't interfere in our part of the world" regardless of what the motives for it were.
    - ethbr0 3y ago
      The operative word there is "our"
    - gus_massa 3y ago
      Hi from Argentina! If this is your part of the world, let us vote in your elections.
      - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
        You can't do much worse than we've been doing. You've got my vote.
        gus_massa 3y ago
        I guess you are not tracking the current news here. :)
- clipsy 3y ago
  > If it was my call to make Luckily for the rest of us, it is not.
thaanpaa 3y ago
It was provoked in the same way that the wife provoked her own beating when she told a friend about how the husband had threatened her the night before.
ethbr0 3y ago
>> Historian Geoffrey Roberts recently wrote: “Could war have been prevented by a Russian-Western deal that halted NATO expansion and neutralised Ukraine in return for solid guarantees of Ukrainian independence and sovereignty? Quite possibly.” Neither the US nor Russia trust each other enough to make neutrality guarantees. And Europe wasn't militarily aggressive and strong enough to vouchsafe it either. And it still would have left the "ethnic Russians and non-Russians in Ukraine" problem unresolved. Historically, "neutral country between superpowers + casus belli" hasn't ended well.
- miles 3y ago
  > "Could war have been prevented by a Russian-Western deal that halted NATO expansion and neutralised Ukraine in return for solid guarantees of Ukrainian independence and sovereignty? Quite possibly." Such guarantees have already failed spectacularly: Ukraine Gave Up a Giant Nuclear Arsenal 30 Years Ago. Today There Are Regrets.: "When the Soviet Union collapsed, Ukraine turned over thousands of atomic weapons in exchange for security guarantees from Russia, the United States and other countries."[1] Lesson From Ukraine: Breaking Promises to Small Countries Means They’ll Never Give Up Nukes: "In the 1990s, world powers promised Ukraine that if it disarmed, they would not violate its security. That promise was broken."[2] Yes, Russia promised in 1994 to never attack Ukraine if it gave up its nuclear weapons: "Ukraine, Russia, the U.S. and the UK signed a 1994 treaty that assured Ukraine it would be safe from attack as long as it gave up its massive stockpile of nukes."[3] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/05/science/ukraine-nuclear-weapons.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/05/science/ukraine-nuclear-w... [2] https://theintercept.com/2022/02/27/ukraine-nuclear-weapons-russia-invasion/ https://theintercept.com/2022/02/27/ukraine-nuclear-weapons-... [3] https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/global-conflicts/ukraine-agreed-to-give-up-nukes-in-exchange-for-safety-from-russia-invasion-attack-budapest-memorandum-treaty/536-8748a51f-10ee-47f0-be30-b4088750ee44 https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/global-confli...

If it was my call to make I would pull the US out of NATO and lobby for it to be dissolved. If the EU wants to make their own military pact then they are free to do so an invite anyone they want to join their club. Let's try to get back to the Monroe Doctrine, shall we?

ethbr0 3y ago
The one where the US claimed hegemony over the western hemisphere?
- mikece 3y ago
  It could be viewed as hegemony or "don't interfere in our part of the world" regardless of what the motives for it were.
  - ethbr0 3y ago
    The operative word there is "our"
  - gus_massa 3y ago
    Hi from Argentina! If this is your part of the world, let us vote in your elections.
    - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
      You can't do much worse than we've been doing. You've got my vote.
      - gus_massa 3y ago
        I guess you are not tracking the current news here. :)
clipsy 3y ago
> If it was my call to make Luckily for the rest of us, it is not.

thaanpaa 3y ago

It was provoked in the same way that the wife provoked her own beating when she told a friend about how the husband had threatened her the night before.

ethbr0 3y ago

>> Historian Geoffrey Roberts recently wrote: “Could war have been prevented by a Russian-Western deal that halted NATO expansion and neutralised Ukraine in return for solid guarantees of Ukrainian independence and sovereignty? Quite possibly.” Neither the US nor Russia trust each other enough to make neutrality guarantees. And Europe wasn't militarily aggressive and strong enough to vouchsafe it either. And it still would have left the "ethnic Russians and non-Russians in Ukraine" problem unresolved. Historically, "neutral country between superpowers + casus belli" hasn't ended well.

miles 3y ago
> "Could war have been prevented by a Russian-Western deal that halted NATO expansion and neutralised Ukraine in return for solid guarantees of Ukrainian independence and sovereignty? Quite possibly." Such guarantees have already failed spectacularly: Ukraine Gave Up a Giant Nuclear Arsenal 30 Years Ago. Today There Are Regrets.: "When the Soviet Union collapsed, Ukraine turned over thousands of atomic weapons in exchange for security guarantees from Russia, the United States and other countries."[1] Lesson From Ukraine: Breaking Promises to Small Countries Means They’ll Never Give Up Nukes: "In the 1990s, world powers promised Ukraine that if it disarmed, they would not violate its security. That promise was broken."[2] Yes, Russia promised in 1994 to never attack Ukraine if it gave up its nuclear weapons: "Ukraine, Russia, the U.S. and the UK signed a 1994 treaty that assured Ukraine it would be safe from attack as long as it gave up its massive stockpile of nukes."[3] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/05/science/ukraine-nuclear-weapons.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/05/science/ukraine-nuclear-w... [2] https://theintercept.com/2022/02/27/ukraine-nuclear-weapons-russia-invasion/ https://theintercept.com/2022/02/27/ukraine-nuclear-weapons-... [3] https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/global-conflicts/ukraine-agreed-to-give-up-nukes-in-exchange-for-safety-from-russia-invasion-attack-budapest-memorandum-treaty/536-8748a51f-10ee-47f0-be30-b4088750ee44 https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/global-confli...