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I have actually thought about this when driving a Tesla which also has the regenerative braking. Here's what their website says for the record, it sounds like i

I have actually thought about this when driving a Tesla which also has the regenerative braking. Here's what their website says for the record, it sounds like it works exactly how I would want, just depends on the threshold for deceleration they set: """ During regenerative braking, Tesla will still activate the brake lights when the vehicle is slowing down, even if the brakes aren't being used at all. Tesla determines whether to turn on your brake lights based on your vehicle's rate of deceleration. If you're unsure if your brake lights are on, look at your Tesla screen, the car in the display shows the brake lights lit up when the brake lights are activated. [0] """ [0] https://www.notateslaapp.com/tesla-reference/1051/how-tesla-s-regenerative-braking-works#:~:text=Does%20Regenerative%20Braking%20Activate%20Your,your%20vehicle's%20rate%20of%20deceleration https://www.notateslaapp.com/tesla-reference/1051/how-tesla-....

cevn 3y ago
Yea the Tesla brakes work exactly how you would want. As soon as you start decelerating, even w/ regen, the lights kick in. Not sure how Hyundai messed it up after having an example..
- notdang 3y ago
  Hyundai/Kia will do the minimum necessary to comply with the local laws.
  - bigmattystyles 3y ago
    Interesting, would seem more efficient to comply with as many laws as possible that don't clash and have one configuration, only tweaking for local oddities.
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      Their business is shaving pennies, hence why they didn't install immobilizers in states that didn't require them, in order to save a few bucks per car.
    - kylecordes 3y ago
      I have a complaint about Tesla on this one. In Europe they ship vastly better tail lights with a different color for turn signals. As I understand, the superior signals are acceptable, though not preferred, by US standards. But Tesla makes a separate, different, worse part to use in the US, rather than giving us the good stuff also and reducing their manufacturing variation.
      - darkwater 3y ago
        As an European I always wondered about why in the US they have red turn signals. It seems...odd, so to speak?
        fragmede 3y ago
        Suburban and Americans aren't so good at living with the level of aggression that city driving requires, and so prefer having clearly delineated left turn time to something perceived as fighting in traffic.
        bombcar 3y ago
        It’s cheaper (or was) - early cars had one red light on each side and could blink it for a turn signal, but it was also the brake. Later a second light was added for the taillight but they did it in the same bulb.
        darkwater 3y ago
        Thanks for the explanation! It still seems odd to me that it hasn't been regulated somehow, having 2 different colors for 2 different actions is safer.
    - tyingq 3y ago
      It's a pattern for Hyundai/Kia. The whole thing with "no anti-theft immobilizers" is only where it's not mandated.
- MattGrommes 3y ago
  My 2020 Bolt does the right thing also. I only wish the lights would stay on while I'm stopped at a light but that's minor.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    Do you not hold the brake when you are stopped? I know electric cars don't have to creep like an automatic ICE, but I drive stick and still hold the brake at a stop because not randomly drifting forward or backward is safer and it also is important in the rare case of getting rear ended
    - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
      I don't know about GM, but in a Tesla, if you have 1-pedal driving enabled, then it automatically holds the brake. And the brake lights stay on. > I know electric cars don't have to creep like an automatic ICE They don't have to, but funny enough, it's an option in a Tesla. My wife uses it simply because it's what she's used to.
MBCook 3y ago
The Mustang Mach E is somewhat similar, if I remember correctly. When slowing down with regenerative breaking it triggers the lights based on how fast it’s slowing down. So if it’s just a tiny bit (slowing from 35 to 30 over a few seconds) it won’t kick on, but from 70 to 35 over a few seconds would.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  We had manual transmission cars that could slow down from engine braking for decades and that never lit the brake lights. I'm not convinced this is an issue. It is your responsibility to keep a safe following distance from any car in front of you regardless of circumstances. You should be able to safely not rear end the car in front of you even if it immediately hits a brick wall and stops completely, and even if the brake lights are entirely missing.
  - Ancapistani 3y ago
    Yep. I drive a Jeep Wrangler and between its manual transmission and the fact that it's less aerodynamic than a cow, I can and often do slow from highway speeds to ~25 MPH without touching the brakes. It's never been an issue.
  - pseudalopex 3y ago
    EU regulators were convinced it was an issue. And do many drivers follow you so distantly?
  - iggldiggl 3y ago
    > You should be able to safely not rear end the car in front of you even if it immediately hits a brick wall and stops completely, […] I don't think that's the usual expectation. Maintaining absolute braking distance is what railways do, whereas cars commonly operate on relative braking distance plus a safety margin accounting for your reaction time. Over here, both driving schools and other general road safety education talk about keeping 2 seconds following distance (or half your kph-speed in metres, which corresponds to 1.8 seconds following distance), and traffic engineers commonly give the capacity of a single lane of traffic as 1800 vehicles/hour, which again corresponds to 2 seconds distance (this time as measured vehicle front to vehicle front, instead of tail to front of following vehicle).
spookthesunset 3y ago
And this is where I take a minor quabble with TC. He thought that GM “over engineered” the volt’s brake light system because it used an accelerometer. But honestly I think it is the easiest way. The only “trick” is to make it stay on once stopped (I’m sure there are conditions when you wouldn’t want them on when stopped though). In fact it looks like the new standards are going to be defined by the rate if deceleration regardless of the means used to do so. Which means basing the lights on an accelerometer is the most reliable way to meet the spec. It shouldn’t matter how you are slowing down, just that you are.
- jakemoshenko 3y ago
  Why do we need an accelerator when we know how fast the wheels are turning directly? The first derivative of wheel speed is almost always car acceleration. Is this to handle some edge cases like not turning the brake lights on when we're actually sliding on ice with the wheels locked? Seems unnecessary.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    Could be as simple as "the controller doesn't have wheel speed on its can bus"
  - willis936 3y ago
    Why is it unnecessary? Isn't the primary goal of brake lights to inform people of deceleration and the secondary goal to indicate when a vehicle is locked stationary? Showing a speeding vehicle behind you that you've lost control and should slow down is well within the conops of brake lights.
    - NikolaNovak 3y ago
      I think there's an agreement on the goal. I believe the poster is asking why do we need another sensor to achieve that goal? We already have a speedometer based on wheel motion. A trivial computation gives acceleration.
hedora 3y ago
The BMW i3 is the same way. This sounds like a recallable defect in the OP’s car’s software.
joshribakoff 3y ago
One drawback of this is the person behind may incorrectly assume you’re brake checking them; i have had a number of tailgating drivers retaliate by accelerating in front of me and slamming on their brakes (which is especially stressful with a kid in the car). Stuff like this makes me deeply regret choosing Tesla.
- m463 3y ago
  I would love a control panel option to turn automatic brake lights on/off. It's really annoying to signal something to others that you don't intend. I think there are a bunch of things tesla does that prevent you from being a good driver. some examples: - you can't flash your headlights (unless you traverse menus on the touchscreen) - you can't set the wiper interval - quickly turn on the defrost? - turn on the hazard lights? (you should google it, it's funny) newer cars go even further - no stalks, touch controls for turn signals, horn and wipers on the steering wheel
  - jeffwass 3y ago
    What model and year do you have? My 6 month old Model Y has a dedicated button for hazard lights on the ceiling. I can flash lights by pulling the left stalk (I forget if forward or backwards). Wiper interval I do miss but what I usually do is either hit the wiper button once on the stalk and set via screen or use the voice interface to say “wipers speed 1”. Can’t you turn defroster on with the voice interface too?
  - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
    > - you can't flash your headlights You can flash the high beams which is good enough, IMO. > - you can't set the wiper interval You absolutely can. In my Model 3, if I press the button on the left stalk, it makes the wipers wipe once and shows the wiper options on the screen. I can set them to Off, Slow, Medium, Fast, and Auto. The only exception is when the car is on Autopilot. Then, it's forced to be Auto. The quality of Tesla's auto-wiper software is questionable, though. > - quickly turn on the defrost? There's a button for that now. > - turn on the hazard lights? (you should google it, it's funny) ? It's a button above the mirror?

cevn 3y ago

Yea the Tesla brakes work exactly how you would want. As soon as you start decelerating, even w/ regen, the lights kick in. Not sure how Hyundai messed it up after having an example..

notdang 3y ago
Hyundai/Kia will do the minimum necessary to comply with the local laws.
- bigmattystyles 3y ago
  Interesting, would seem more efficient to comply with as many laws as possible that don't clash and have one configuration, only tweaking for local oddities.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    Their business is shaving pennies, hence why they didn't install immobilizers in states that didn't require them, in order to save a few bucks per car.
  - kylecordes 3y ago
    I have a complaint about Tesla on this one. In Europe they ship vastly better tail lights with a different color for turn signals. As I understand, the superior signals are acceptable, though not preferred, by US standards. But Tesla makes a separate, different, worse part to use in the US, rather than giving us the good stuff also and reducing their manufacturing variation.
    - darkwater 3y ago
      As an European I always wondered about why in the US they have red turn signals. It seems...odd, so to speak?
      - fragmede 3y ago
        Suburban and Americans aren't so good at living with the level of aggression that city driving requires, and so prefer having clearly delineated left turn time to something perceived as fighting in traffic.
      - bombcar 3y ago
        It’s cheaper (or was) - early cars had one red light on each side and could blink it for a turn signal, but it was also the brake. Later a second light was added for the taillight but they did it in the same bulb.
        darkwater 3y ago
        Thanks for the explanation! It still seems odd to me that it hasn't been regulated somehow, having 2 different colors for 2 different actions is safer.
  - tyingq 3y ago
    It's a pattern for Hyundai/Kia. The whole thing with "no anti-theft immobilizers" is only where it's not mandated.
MattGrommes 3y ago
My 2020 Bolt does the right thing also. I only wish the lights would stay on while I'm stopped at a light but that's minor.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  Do you not hold the brake when you are stopped? I know electric cars don't have to creep like an automatic ICE, but I drive stick and still hold the brake at a stop because not randomly drifting forward or backward is safer and it also is important in the rare case of getting rear ended
  - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
    I don't know about GM, but in a Tesla, if you have 1-pedal driving enabled, then it automatically holds the brake. And the brake lights stay on. > I know electric cars don't have to creep like an automatic ICE They don't have to, but funny enough, it's an option in a Tesla. My wife uses it simply because it's what she's used to.

MBCook 3y ago

The Mustang Mach E is somewhat similar, if I remember correctly. When slowing down with regenerative breaking it triggers the lights based on how fast it’s slowing down. So if it’s just a tiny bit (slowing from 35 to 30 over a few seconds) it won’t kick on, but from 70 to 35 over a few seconds would.

mrguyorama 3y ago
We had manual transmission cars that could slow down from engine braking for decades and that never lit the brake lights. I'm not convinced this is an issue. It is your responsibility to keep a safe following distance from any car in front of you regardless of circumstances. You should be able to safely not rear end the car in front of you even if it immediately hits a brick wall and stops completely, and even if the brake lights are entirely missing.
- Ancapistani 3y ago
  Yep. I drive a Jeep Wrangler and between its manual transmission and the fact that it's less aerodynamic than a cow, I can and often do slow from highway speeds to ~25 MPH without touching the brakes. It's never been an issue.
- pseudalopex 3y ago
  EU regulators were convinced it was an issue. And do many drivers follow you so distantly?
- iggldiggl 3y ago
  > You should be able to safely not rear end the car in front of you even if it immediately hits a brick wall and stops completely, […] I don't think that's the usual expectation. Maintaining absolute braking distance is what railways do, whereas cars commonly operate on relative braking distance plus a safety margin accounting for your reaction time. Over here, both driving schools and other general road safety education talk about keeping 2 seconds following distance (or half your kph-speed in metres, which corresponds to 1.8 seconds following distance), and traffic engineers commonly give the capacity of a single lane of traffic as 1800 vehicles/hour, which again corresponds to 2 seconds distance (this time as measured vehicle front to vehicle front, instead of tail to front of following vehicle).

spookthesunset 3y ago

And this is where I take a minor quabble with TC. He thought that GM “over engineered” the volt’s brake light system because it used an accelerometer. But honestly I think it is the easiest way. The only “trick” is to make it stay on once stopped (I’m sure there are conditions when you wouldn’t want them on when stopped though). In fact it looks like the new standards are going to be defined by the rate if deceleration regardless of the means used to do so. Which means basing the lights on an accelerometer is the most reliable way to meet the spec. It shouldn’t matter how you are slowing down, just that you are.

jakemoshenko 3y ago
Why do we need an accelerator when we know how fast the wheels are turning directly? The first derivative of wheel speed is almost always car acceleration. Is this to handle some edge cases like not turning the brake lights on when we're actually sliding on ice with the wheels locked? Seems unnecessary.
- ilyt 3y ago
  Could be as simple as "the controller doesn't have wheel speed on its can bus"
- willis936 3y ago
  Why is it unnecessary? Isn't the primary goal of brake lights to inform people of deceleration and the secondary goal to indicate when a vehicle is locked stationary? Showing a speeding vehicle behind you that you've lost control and should slow down is well within the conops of brake lights.
  - NikolaNovak 3y ago
    I think there's an agreement on the goal. I believe the poster is asking why do we need another sensor to achieve that goal? We already have a speedometer based on wheel motion. A trivial computation gives acceleration.

hedora 3y ago

The BMW i3 is the same way. This sounds like a recallable defect in the OP’s car’s software.

joshribakoff 3y ago

One drawback of this is the person behind may incorrectly assume you’re brake checking them; i have had a number of tailgating drivers retaliate by accelerating in front of me and slamming on their brakes (which is especially stressful with a kid in the car). Stuff like this makes me deeply regret choosing Tesla.

m463 3y ago
I would love a control panel option to turn automatic brake lights on/off. It's really annoying to signal something to others that you don't intend. I think there are a bunch of things tesla does that prevent you from being a good driver. some examples: - you can't flash your headlights (unless you traverse menus on the touchscreen) - you can't set the wiper interval - quickly turn on the defrost? - turn on the hazard lights? (you should google it, it's funny) newer cars go even further - no stalks, touch controls for turn signals, horn and wipers on the steering wheel
- jeffwass 3y ago
  What model and year do you have? My 6 month old Model Y has a dedicated button for hazard lights on the ceiling. I can flash lights by pulling the left stalk (I forget if forward or backwards). Wiper interval I do miss but what I usually do is either hit the wiper button once on the stalk and set via screen or use the voice interface to say “wipers speed 1”. Can’t you turn defroster on with the voice interface too?
- Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
  > - you can't flash your headlights You can flash the high beams which is good enough, IMO. > - you can't set the wiper interval You absolutely can. In my Model 3, if I press the button on the left stalk, it makes the wipers wipe once and shows the wiper options on the screen. I can set them to Off, Slow, Medium, Fast, and Auto. The only exception is when the car is on Autopilot. Then, it's forced to be Auto. The quality of Tesla's auto-wiper software is questionable, though. > - quickly turn on the defrost? There's a button for that now. > - turn on the hazard lights? (you should google it, it's funny) ? It's a button above the mirror?