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My understanding for the confusion with nutrition studies are all the lies - industry-funded one-sided "findings" in favor of the industry. Why do you think th

by yboris 3y ago

My understanding for the confusion with nutrition studies are all the lies - industry-funded one-sided "findings" in favor of the industry. Why do you think there is any confusion about the overall health effects of eating meat, eggs, and dairy? With $ billions at stake - of course they find unethical ways to find some statistical anomaly to make their products good along some narrow dimension - and then have their money-funded media stories amplifying the lies. I strongly recommend https://nutritionfacts.org/ https://nutritionfacts.org/ - a non-profit focusing on finding the signal through the noise.

cbsmith 3y ago
Fortunately there's no industry around nutrition.
293984j29384 3y ago
I disagree. nutritionfacts.org is a biased site that has been created by a vegan doctor who built his entire career on paid speaking about vegan pseudoscience. Several of the claims made by him have been debunked by independent sources.
- the_gastropod 3y ago
  Interesting. Do you have any examples? I'm familiar with Dr. Greger overstating certain things, but haven't been aware of any outright falsehoods.
  - 293984j29384 3y ago
    Feel free to Google additional examples, there are plenty. The link below only analyzes a single video by Dr. Greger and finds it riddled with errors, mistakes and what I would consider outright lies. Many of the studies quoted as "evidence" are either flawed, incomplete, or simply misrepresented by Greger to fit his prefered narrative. I'm actually a believer in plant based diets but this guy is a modern day snake oil salesman. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illnes... https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/nutritionfacts-org/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/nutritionfacts-org/
  - thghtihadanacct 3y ago
    Well, his book is titled 'How not to Die'. Seems a bit hyperbolic ;)
elil17 3y ago
>Why do you think there is any confusion about the overall health effects of eating meat, eggs, and dairy? Because I have genuinely no idea whether you think that meat, eggs, and dairy have positive or negative overall health effects.
- yboris 3y ago
  Think it through - would a billion dollar industry have resources to pay people to run illegitimate studies to create sham findings in their favor? Is there a counter-balancing force with the same amount of financial backing? Meat consumption has reliably been found to have bad effects on health.
  - elil17 3y ago
    I'm not saying your wrong, but I think you should take a step back and consider how this sounds to someone who doesn't share your opinion. You're pretty much saying that, as long as you ignore the studies which you consider to be illegitimate, then the outcome of the science is clear. The fact of the matter is that research showing that eating meat has a negative impact on health also suffers from conflicts of interest. Now, those conflicts of interest come from many researchers compassion for animals - and there's a big moral difference between that and conflicts of interest which come from the greed of the meat industry. But from a scientific perspective, it's not legitimate to simply dismiss one side and accept the other.
    - the_gastropod 3y ago
      This feels like more of the "BOTH SIDES!" dilemma that's plagued politics and journalism for the past decade. Frankly, I don't understand how one distinguishes this from good ol' fashioned nihilism. If we're treating potential "compassion for animals" as a conflict of interest, there's not a study in history that could be completely free of conflict of interest. Not everything has to be a both sides equivocation . Degree and severity matter. "Compassion for animals" and "receiving funding from a party with a vested interest in the outcome" are not equivalent conflicts of interest.
Imnimo 3y ago
Do you think the same is true for fruits, vegetables and nuts?
- the_gastropod 3y ago
  Big Kale is infamous for its propaganda
  - Imnimo 3y ago
    For example: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/02/misunderstanding-orange-juice-as-a-health-drink/283579/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/02/misunders...
WorldMaker 3y ago
I think today's money isn't even the problem and it is worse than just today's lies, but all the way to the underlying foundations at the bottom of nutrition "science". So much of the foundational work was done by the "scientists" at Wellville, a religious cult with weird business practices and business interests and some wild lack of scientific ethics (despite their "morality" as a religious cult), and some of the only replication studies of note were done by German scientists in the 1930s/1940s whose political motivations are all naturally suspect today. I feel like it is beyond the "replication crisis" of any other science when your replication crisis involves potential war crimes. (p-hacking looks so quaint in comparison.) If any other science had that sort of foundation and its replication problems that entire science would likely have been thrown out by now. A lot of people still think that there must be some sort of baby in all that extremely tainted bathwater and are afraid to throw it out. (I have come to believe that nutrition science has become the last bastion of Phlogiston Theory in any of the sciences, and that is more damaging than people realize.)
LastTrain 3y ago
When you think everyone else is wrong and you are the smart one, well…

by yboris 3y ago

cbsmith 3y ago

Fortunately there's no industry around nutrition.

293984j29384 3y ago

I disagree. nutritionfacts.org is a biased site that has been created by a vegan doctor who built his entire career on paid speaking about vegan pseudoscience. Several of the claims made by him have been debunked by independent sources.

the_gastropod 3y ago
Interesting. Do you have any examples? I'm familiar with Dr. Greger overstating certain things, but haven't been aware of any outright falsehoods.
- 293984j29384 3y ago
  Feel free to Google additional examples, there are plenty. The link below only analyzes a single video by Dr. Greger and finds it riddled with errors, mistakes and what I would consider outright lies. Many of the studies quoted as "evidence" are either flawed, incomplete, or simply misrepresented by Greger to fit his prefered narrative. I'm actually a believer in plant based diets but this guy is a modern day snake oil salesman. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illnes... https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/nutritionfacts-org/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/nutritionfacts-org/
- thghtihadanacct 3y ago
  Well, his book is titled 'How not to Die'. Seems a bit hyperbolic ;)

elil17 3y ago

>Why do you think there is any confusion about the overall health effects of eating meat, eggs, and dairy? Because I have genuinely no idea whether you think that meat, eggs, and dairy have positive or negative overall health effects.

yboris 3y ago
Think it through - would a billion dollar industry have resources to pay people to run illegitimate studies to create sham findings in their favor? Is there a counter-balancing force with the same amount of financial backing? Meat consumption has reliably been found to have bad effects on health.
- elil17 3y ago
  I'm not saying your wrong, but I think you should take a step back and consider how this sounds to someone who doesn't share your opinion. You're pretty much saying that, as long as you ignore the studies which you consider to be illegitimate, then the outcome of the science is clear. The fact of the matter is that research showing that eating meat has a negative impact on health also suffers from conflicts of interest. Now, those conflicts of interest come from many researchers compassion for animals - and there's a big moral difference between that and conflicts of interest which come from the greed of the meat industry. But from a scientific perspective, it's not legitimate to simply dismiss one side and accept the other.
  - the_gastropod 3y ago
    This feels like more of the "BOTH SIDES!" dilemma that's plagued politics and journalism for the past decade. Frankly, I don't understand how one distinguishes this from good ol' fashioned nihilism. If we're treating potential "compassion for animals" as a conflict of interest, there's not a study in history that could be completely free of conflict of interest. Not everything has to be a both sides equivocation . Degree and severity matter. "Compassion for animals" and "receiving funding from a party with a vested interest in the outcome" are not equivalent conflicts of interest.

Imnimo 3y ago

Do you think the same is true for fruits, vegetables and nuts?

the_gastropod 3y ago
Big Kale is infamous for its propaganda
- Imnimo 3y ago
  For example: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/02/misunderstanding-orange-juice-as-a-health-drink/283579/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/02/misunders...

WorldMaker 3y ago

I think today's money isn't even the problem and it is worse than just today's lies, but all the way to the underlying foundations at the bottom of nutrition "science". So much of the foundational work was done by the "scientists" at Wellville, a religious cult with weird business practices and business interests and some wild lack of scientific ethics (despite their "morality" as a religious cult), and some of the only replication studies of note were done by German scientists in the 1930s/1940s whose political motivations are all naturally suspect today. I feel like it is beyond the "replication crisis" of any other science when your replication crisis involves potential war crimes. (p-hacking looks so quaint in comparison.) If any other science had that sort of foundation and its replication problems that entire science would likely have been thrown out by now. A lot of people still think that there must be some sort of baby in all that extremely tainted bathwater and are afraid to throw it out. (I have come to believe that nutrition science has become the last bastion of Phlogiston Theory in any of the sciences, and that is more damaging than people realize.)

LastTrain 3y ago

When you think everyone else is wrong and you are the smart one, well…