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Can’t software be done? No known bugs, all features in a proposed scope written. Done and done.

by tambourine_man 3y ago

msla 3y ago
No, software can't be done, because the hardware platform it runs on continues to change.
- cyanydeez 3y ago
  Perpetual growth is a myth, even in software. Things like Docker demonstrate all that matters is encapsulation by those interested in keeping these projects live.
  - jethro_tell 3y ago
    sure, but minix is running directly in the cpu of every intel processor for the last decade+. So it surely doesn't apply here.
  - msla 3y ago
    Perpetual growth, nothing. CPUs and graphics hardware changes, so the OS has to change.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  One exciting thing about Moore’s law being finished would be that the hardware stops changing :)
  - msla 3y ago
    I think you misunderstand Moore's law.
542458 3y ago
Either one of those would be a notable accomplishment on its own for a medium size codebase. I don’t feel that there would be reason to believe that both of those would be true here.
Bondi_Blue 3y ago
https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix/issues https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix...
- mrelectric 3y ago
  Which one of those is going against OP comment?
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    All of them
    - JdeBP 3y ago
      That's pretty poor analysis. The existence of an issues list on GitHub doesn't automatically mean that the issues are valid, and the 2nd random one that I picked was someone complaining that fetching a package with FTP didn't work when the network was down. In 2021. * https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix/issues/324 https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix... Then this one turned out to be a chat request. * https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix/issues/330 https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix... And this one the author actually asked to be closed, because the problem is fixed. It's still open. * https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix/issues/308 https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix... If those are any indication, this is an issues list where no-one gets rid of the rubbish, and it thus its existence alone tells one nothing at all, as one probably is going to have to weed a whole bunch of very clearly non-bugs out to determine if there's anything left.
      - cxr 3y ago
        That's all well and good, but Minix is not "done", no one involved with Minix is billing it that way, and no one who knows anything about the current state of things would let anyone who tried to say that get away with it. tambourine_man posed a valid hypothetical, but that's all it is: hypothetical.
rzzzt 3y ago
"yes" might be one example.
- myhf 3y ago
  true
binarycleric 3y ago
Software is "done" when it is retried.
lolinder 3y ago
> No known bugs This is the part that I doubt will ever be achieved by any system or structure of moderate complexity or above. Everything that exists in the real world has problems with it. If it's a building or a machine, then it's done once it's built unless there are major safety issues. The cost of fixing non-critical issues in a physical product is too high to justify. The problem with software is that the marginal cost of "one more fix" is close to zero, which means that declaring something "done" means drawing a somewhat arbitrary line in the sand. Why is this new complaint less important than the similarly-scoped one that you fixed last week? There's not really a good answer to this question, so there's never a good day to say that you're not fixing anything more.
- jonhohle 3y ago
  > If it's a building or a machine, then it's done once it's built… Modern construction requires a significant amount of maintenance. The Romans on the other hand, they knew how to build a building!
  - lolinder 3y ago
    That's fair, but we'd still consider the building to be "done" in the sense that OP means—the construction crew can go home. When I refer to problems that go unaddressed I'm thinking of problems like "this bathroom is too small", not "the roof needs replacing".
  - rodgerd 3y ago
    > Modern construction requires a significant amount of maintenance. I was raised with the rule of thumb that you should budget 1% of the purchase price of a house for maintenance; while that's roughly true for my century-old villa that I purchased at the turn of the century, I suspect that the hockey-stick of residential housing has made it a bit inaccurate. And something that I didn't really understand until an architect cousin explained to me is that modern commercial buildings mostly have a designed lifespan, typically 50-100 years.
    - deleted 3y ago
Gigachad 3y ago
Nothing is ever done. Even things as established as the bicycle and cooking are under constant evolution, research, and improvement. Software is hardly getting started in comparison.
kqr 3y ago
The problem is not fulfilling the requirements -- that can happen. The problem is that requirements change when the rest of the world does. If remodeling buildings had the ROI that continued development of software does, that would happen all the time too.

Can’t software be done? No known bugs, all features in a proposed scope written. Done and done.

msla 3y ago

No, software can't be done, because the hardware platform it runs on continues to change.

cyanydeez 3y ago
Perpetual growth is a myth, even in software. Things like Docker demonstrate all that matters is encapsulation by those interested in keeping these projects live.
- jethro_tell 3y ago
  sure, but minix is running directly in the cpu of every intel processor for the last decade+. So it surely doesn't apply here.
- msla 3y ago
  Perpetual growth, nothing. CPUs and graphics hardware changes, so the OS has to change.
mensetmanusman 3y ago
One exciting thing about Moore’s law being finished would be that the hardware stops changing :)
- msla 3y ago
  I think you misunderstand Moore's law.

542458 3y ago

Either one of those would be a notable accomplishment on its own for a medium size codebase. I don’t feel that there would be reason to believe that both of those would be true here.

Bondi_Blue 3y ago

https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix/issues https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix...

mrelectric 3y ago
Which one of those is going against OP comment?
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  All of them
  - JdeBP 3y ago
    That's pretty poor analysis. The existence of an issues list on GitHub doesn't automatically mean that the issues are valid, and the 2nd random one that I picked was someone complaining that fetching a package with FTP didn't work when the network was down. In 2021. * https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix/issues/324 https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix... Then this one turned out to be a chat request. * https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix/issues/330 https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix... And this one the author actually asked to be closed, because the problem is fixed. It's still open. * https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix/issues/308 https://github.com/Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/minix... If those are any indication, this is an issues list where no-one gets rid of the rubbish, and it thus its existence alone tells one nothing at all, as one probably is going to have to weed a whole bunch of very clearly non-bugs out to determine if there's anything left.
    - cxr 3y ago
      That's all well and good, but Minix is not "done", no one involved with Minix is billing it that way, and no one who knows anything about the current state of things would let anyone who tried to say that get away with it. tambourine_man posed a valid hypothetical, but that's all it is: hypothetical.

rzzzt 3y ago

"yes" might be one example.

myhf 3y ago
true

binarycleric 3y ago

Software is "done" when it is retried.

lolinder 3y ago

> No known bugs This is the part that I doubt will ever be achieved by any system or structure of moderate complexity or above. Everything that exists in the real world has problems with it. If it's a building or a machine, then it's done once it's built unless there are major safety issues. The cost of fixing non-critical issues in a physical product is too high to justify. The problem with software is that the marginal cost of "one more fix" is close to zero, which means that declaring something "done" means drawing a somewhat arbitrary line in the sand. Why is this new complaint less important than the similarly-scoped one that you fixed last week? There's not really a good answer to this question, so there's never a good day to say that you're not fixing anything more.

jonhohle 3y ago
> If it's a building or a machine, then it's done once it's built… Modern construction requires a significant amount of maintenance. The Romans on the other hand, they knew how to build a building!
- lolinder 3y ago
  That's fair, but we'd still consider the building to be "done" in the sense that OP means—the construction crew can go home. When I refer to problems that go unaddressed I'm thinking of problems like "this bathroom is too small", not "the roof needs replacing".
- rodgerd 3y ago
  > Modern construction requires a significant amount of maintenance. I was raised with the rule of thumb that you should budget 1% of the purchase price of a house for maintenance; while that's roughly true for my century-old villa that I purchased at the turn of the century, I suspect that the hockey-stick of residential housing has made it a bit inaccurate. And something that I didn't really understand until an architect cousin explained to me is that modern commercial buildings mostly have a designed lifespan, typically 50-100 years.
  - deleted 3y ago

Gigachad 3y ago

Nothing is ever done. Even things as established as the bicycle and cooking are under constant evolution, research, and improvement. Software is hardly getting started in comparison.

kqr 3y ago

The problem is not fulfilling the requirements -- that can happen. The problem is that requirements change when the rest of the world does. If remodeling buildings had the ROI that continued development of software does, that would happen all the time too.