6 ms·

Could have been a great opportunity to try to actually improve things rather than adding loopholes for the benefit of special interests. Maybe with the right pe

Could have been a great opportunity to try to actually improve things rather than adding loopholes for the benefit of special interests. Maybe with the right people in power that could still be achieved, but seems unlikely.

SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
I don’t know, you’re talking about a surveillance-crazy culture, I don’t see them shying away from facial recognition.
- pjc50 3y ago
  Yeah, as with the US people will accept or even demand almost any authoritarian measure in the UK so long as it's used against people they don't like. But with some special UK pathologies.
- captainbland 3y ago
  We love it. When we can't afford real CCTV, we hang fake cameras up practically as decorations. Asda even shows you a picture of your own face with a little green box around it to show they've got you and then allegedly just discards the data from it: https://fullfact.org/online/Asda-facial-recognition/ https://fullfact.org/online/Asda-facial-recognition/ Even when it's legally dubious we'll do our damnedest to look like we're surveilling the ** out of you.
  - SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
    While I enjoy the candor and tone to your post, the content makes me a little uneasy. It just can’t be good for society. That said, I didn’t think London was nearly as bad a Singapore for number of cameras. And their aren’t closed, I have no doubt that’s all to a central store, facial, and AI all rolling now.
    - shadowgovt 3y ago
      If anything, the UK take on surveillance was (for me as a visiting American) hugely de-stressing. In the US, I worry that some anonymous fellow citizen packing heat is going to snap and decide to execute a lifestyle change on me I didn't ask for and then melt away, unaccountable. The US unsolved murder rate is at a record high. Between the lack of firearm rights and the ubiquitous surveillance, I never had that fear in the UK.
      - nly 3y ago
        In the UK it'll just be a knife instead of a gun.
        captainbland 3y ago
        The US has even higher rates/incidence of knife violence than the UK. Knife crime just gets more air time in the UK presumably because gun crime isn't drowning it out.
        shadowgovt 3y ago
        That's much preferable. The odds of a person catching a stray knife from a conflict a block away, or being one of a dozen knifing victims in a mass knifing incident because someone had a bad day and decided to take it out on a shopping mall, are far lower than with the other weapon. I haven't heard, but I'm pretty sure elementary school students in Bristol aren't holding knifing drills where they learn how to hide under their desks and pretend they've already been knifed. They say a fish isn't really aware of the water they're swimming in. Visiting Europe was like having a weight lifted off me, a tension released, that I'd been carrying my whole life and didn't know was there. Americans just live with the spectre of death due to random gun violence perched on their shoulder these days.
dijit 3y ago
Yes, but this is the UK government. They are not benevolent. At every opportunity presented: they erode our rights, unless it has significant public support and costs absolutely nothing. (like gay marriage). As soon as anything impedes special interests even slightly, be sure it will be legislated out of existence if possible. One argument brexiteers trot out commonly is that EU regulations make it hard to be competitive. But human rights should impede "competition" otherwise it's a race to the bottom.
- 908B64B197 3y ago
  To be completely honest, I was surprised and disappointed at the amount of resources and time spent by the UK's government to infringe on the free-speech rights of pacifist anti-monarchists protesters. This contrasted with the weak response from the government after the sordid London bridge attacks, with the mayor even stating that "Terror attacks are 'part and parcel of living in a big city'". Is this what people in the UK want?
  - dukeyukey 3y ago
    The actual quote is: "Part and parcel of living in a great global city is you have to be prepared for these things. You have to be vigilant." The context was talking about working with other big cities, specifically New York as it was just before a meeting with Bill de Blasio to talk about cross-training and information exchange.
Timon3 3y ago
It could have been, but realistically only if the goal is "find problems in current legislation and improve". They started from "repeal current legislation and replace". It's like a developer deciding to just rewrite the legacy system, it won't lead you to your desired outcome.
- pbhjpbhj 3y ago
  It won't lead to desirable outcomes for the country, but it will lead to desirable outcomes for the Tory's increasingly fascist oligarchy, presumably. Johnson was asked directly about workers rights prior to Brexit and said that we would improve them and that it was so totally wrong of Remainers to assume any rights would be eroded... and no-one paying attention is surprised to find that was a lie. But it probably worked for a small margin of voters in the referendum.
blitzar 3y ago
> Could have been a great opportunity to try to actually improve things rather than adding loopholes for the benefit of special interests. The reality is that the EU legislation was toxic and loopholed at the behest of the UK and its special interests. The UK was not a moderating influence, but the UK was the one calling for no encryption and spying of the population. If given a chance to improve or remove legislation the UK government will remove it NOT because its an assault on freedom and liberty, but because they dont think it goes far enough in curtailing freedom and liberty.
- hawk_ 3y ago
  Yes, very well explained in Yes Minister https://youtu.be/37iHSwA1SwE https://youtu.be/37iHSwA1SwE
  - morkalork 3y ago
    Just started watching the series this weekend; it holds up shockingly well. The only sad thing is it's almost not cynical enough when compared to today's politics.
- verisimi 3y ago
  Well said. As a UK national, I have to prefer being beaten with relish by genuine sadists (the UK government), rather than by sadists who pretend to have some heart left over.
  - sangnoir 3y ago
    Mission accomplished! Good luck with, well, everything & looking forward to seeing you in back in the Union within 2 generations! Without the prior exemptions & special treatment, naturally.
    - ThisIsNotNew 3y ago
      Many Brits against Brexit and who want to rejoin EU disagree and believe EU wants UK back so much it'll offer the same terms as before.
mijamo 3y ago
You didn't need Brexit to "improve" this kind of things, countries can already go beyond EU regulations on their own.
zepn 3y ago
> Could have been a great opportunity to try to actually improve things rather than adding loopholes for the benefit of special interests. But the kind of people who want the policy that Brexit is - i.e. xenophobic nationalists - are not the kind of people you'd want to take such an opportunity. Membership of the EU was a great opportunity. Brexit is an opportunity for fascists.
- trackflak 3y ago
  > Brexit is an opportunity for fascists. I'd be curious to hear how exiting the European Union relates to the doctrines of Benito Mussolini.
  - idiotsecant 3y ago
    Good news, Mussolini is dead so there aren't fascists anymore! They entire ethos was strictly and solely related to that specific time and place and is now a historical curiosity only! Phew, that was a close one!
    - trackflak 3y ago
      Again, I asked how the wish of 1/2 of your countrymen to leave the EU relates to 'fascism'. Yes, I was slightly in jest because there are many reasons why one might be sceptical of the EU. One could even compare the EU to pan-European movements of the 1940s like Fascism, but that wouldn't be productive. I need propositions, not further slander.
LatteLazy 3y ago
The British system (parliamentary sovereignty) means your rights are ONLY what the current government decides. There is no way to establish fundamental rights the way the US can with an Amendment. So any improvement you get post brexit is only worth a damn until the next change of whim of parliament. Personally, I would take a guaranteed "90% right" system (aka the EU) over a random number generator (aka Brexit)...
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  Although most countries end up rewriting their constitutions every now again, just look at Chile now, or even France since WW2. Very few, maybe no countries have a constitution as set and inflexible as the US.
  - LatteLazy 3y ago
    I don't mind changing constitutions. None should be permanent. Weirdly the UK is one of the few unchangeable ones however, that is sort of the only rule: there are no (other) rules. It's super weird...

SV_BubbleTime 3y ago

I don’t know, you’re talking about a surveillance-crazy culture, I don’t see them shying away from facial recognition.

pjc50 3y ago
Yeah, as with the US people will accept or even demand almost any authoritarian measure in the UK so long as it's used against people they don't like. But with some special UK pathologies.
captainbland 3y ago
We love it. When we can't afford real CCTV, we hang fake cameras up practically as decorations. Asda even shows you a picture of your own face with a little green box around it to show they've got you and then allegedly just discards the data from it: https://fullfact.org/online/Asda-facial-recognition/ https://fullfact.org/online/Asda-facial-recognition/ Even when it's legally dubious we'll do our damnedest to look like we're surveilling the ** out of you.
- SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
  While I enjoy the candor and tone to your post, the content makes me a little uneasy. It just can’t be good for society. That said, I didn’t think London was nearly as bad a Singapore for number of cameras. And their aren’t closed, I have no doubt that’s all to a central store, facial, and AI all rolling now.
  - shadowgovt 3y ago
    If anything, the UK take on surveillance was (for me as a visiting American) hugely de-stressing. In the US, I worry that some anonymous fellow citizen packing heat is going to snap and decide to execute a lifestyle change on me I didn't ask for and then melt away, unaccountable. The US unsolved murder rate is at a record high. Between the lack of firearm rights and the ubiquitous surveillance, I never had that fear in the UK.
    - nly 3y ago
      In the UK it'll just be a knife instead of a gun.
      - captainbland 3y ago
        The US has even higher rates/incidence of knife violence than the UK. Knife crime just gets more air time in the UK presumably because gun crime isn't drowning it out.
      - shadowgovt 3y ago
        That's much preferable. The odds of a person catching a stray knife from a conflict a block away, or being one of a dozen knifing victims in a mass knifing incident because someone had a bad day and decided to take it out on a shopping mall, are far lower than with the other weapon. I haven't heard, but I'm pretty sure elementary school students in Bristol aren't holding knifing drills where they learn how to hide under their desks and pretend they've already been knifed. They say a fish isn't really aware of the water they're swimming in. Visiting Europe was like having a weight lifted off me, a tension released, that I'd been carrying my whole life and didn't know was there. Americans just live with the spectre of death due to random gun violence perched on their shoulder these days.

dijit 3y ago

Yes, but this is the UK government. They are not benevolent. At every opportunity presented: they erode our rights, unless it has significant public support and costs absolutely nothing. (like gay marriage). As soon as anything impedes special interests even slightly, be sure it will be legislated out of existence if possible. One argument brexiteers trot out commonly is that EU regulations make it hard to be competitive. But human rights should impede "competition" otherwise it's a race to the bottom.

908B64B197 3y ago
To be completely honest, I was surprised and disappointed at the amount of resources and time spent by the UK's government to infringe on the free-speech rights of pacifist anti-monarchists protesters. This contrasted with the weak response from the government after the sordid London bridge attacks, with the mayor even stating that "Terror attacks are 'part and parcel of living in a big city'". Is this what people in the UK want?
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  The actual quote is: "Part and parcel of living in a great global city is you have to be prepared for these things. You have to be vigilant." The context was talking about working with other big cities, specifically New York as it was just before a meeting with Bill de Blasio to talk about cross-training and information exchange.

Timon3 3y ago

It could have been, but realistically only if the goal is "find problems in current legislation and improve". They started from "repeal current legislation and replace". It's like a developer deciding to just rewrite the legacy system, it won't lead you to your desired outcome.

pbhjpbhj 3y ago
It won't lead to desirable outcomes for the country, but it will lead to desirable outcomes for the Tory's increasingly fascist oligarchy, presumably. Johnson was asked directly about workers rights prior to Brexit and said that we would improve them and that it was so totally wrong of Remainers to assume any rights would be eroded... and no-one paying attention is surprised to find that was a lie. But it probably worked for a small margin of voters in the referendum.

blitzar 3y ago

> Could have been a great opportunity to try to actually improve things rather than adding loopholes for the benefit of special interests. The reality is that the EU legislation was toxic and loopholed at the behest of the UK and its special interests. The UK was not a moderating influence, but the UK was the one calling for no encryption and spying of the population. If given a chance to improve or remove legislation the UK government will remove it NOT because its an assault on freedom and liberty, but because they dont think it goes far enough in curtailing freedom and liberty.

hawk_ 3y ago
Yes, very well explained in Yes Minister https://youtu.be/37iHSwA1SwE https://youtu.be/37iHSwA1SwE
- morkalork 3y ago
  Just started watching the series this weekend; it holds up shockingly well. The only sad thing is it's almost not cynical enough when compared to today's politics.
verisimi 3y ago
Well said. As a UK national, I have to prefer being beaten with relish by genuine sadists (the UK government), rather than by sadists who pretend to have some heart left over.
- sangnoir 3y ago
  Mission accomplished! Good luck with, well, everything & looking forward to seeing you in back in the Union within 2 generations! Without the prior exemptions & special treatment, naturally.
  - ThisIsNotNew 3y ago
    Many Brits against Brexit and who want to rejoin EU disagree and believe EU wants UK back so much it'll offer the same terms as before.

mijamo 3y ago

You didn't need Brexit to "improve" this kind of things, countries can already go beyond EU regulations on their own.

zepn 3y ago

> Could have been a great opportunity to try to actually improve things rather than adding loopholes for the benefit of special interests. But the kind of people who want the policy that Brexit is - i.e. xenophobic nationalists - are not the kind of people you'd want to take such an opportunity. Membership of the EU was a great opportunity. Brexit is an opportunity for fascists.

trackflak 3y ago
> Brexit is an opportunity for fascists. I'd be curious to hear how exiting the European Union relates to the doctrines of Benito Mussolini.
- idiotsecant 3y ago
  Good news, Mussolini is dead so there aren't fascists anymore! They entire ethos was strictly and solely related to that specific time and place and is now a historical curiosity only! Phew, that was a close one!
  - trackflak 3y ago
    Again, I asked how the wish of 1/2 of your countrymen to leave the EU relates to 'fascism'. Yes, I was slightly in jest because there are many reasons why one might be sceptical of the EU. One could even compare the EU to pan-European movements of the 1940s like Fascism, but that wouldn't be productive. I need propositions, not further slander.

LatteLazy 3y ago

The British system (parliamentary sovereignty) means your rights are ONLY what the current government decides. There is no way to establish fundamental rights the way the US can with an Amendment. So any improvement you get post brexit is only worth a damn until the next change of whim of parliament. Personally, I would take a guaranteed "90% right" system (aka the EU) over a random number generator (aka Brexit)...

dukeyukey 3y ago
Although most countries end up rewriting their constitutions every now again, just look at Chile now, or even France since WW2. Very few, maybe no countries have a constitution as set and inflexible as the US.
- LatteLazy 3y ago
  I don't mind changing constitutions. None should be permanent. Weirdly the UK is one of the few unchangeable ones however, that is sort of the only rule: there are no (other) rules. It's super weird...