3 ms·

For the elites who backed it - as opposed to the people who voted for it - Brexit was always a project about Americanising the UK. They're the same people forci

by hkt 3y ago

For the elites who backed it - as opposed to the people who voted for it - Brexit was always a project about Americanising the UK. They're the same people forcing mayors on us, the same ones who wanted chlorinated chicken, the same ones who think american style private health insurance is a good way to run a healthcare system, and all the rest. So I'm not surprised that they think invasive surveillance capitalism is also a good thing.

charlieyu1 3y ago
I’m a Hongkonger. The only thing I know about UK before moving to there is the Queen, and Manchester United. I’m curious of what British politics like in general. Like, I’m absolutely against invasive surveillance, but I associate it more with communist China and its authoritarian bullshit.
- hkt 3y ago
  It is deeply authoritarian from Labour and the Conservatives. During the Troubles (eg, the Irish Republican Army bombing the UK and their opposite numbers in Northern Ireland doing the same) we practiced internment - eg mass incarceration without charge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius We also routinely convicted people on flimsy charges, this being the most notorious case: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six A notoriously brutal policing operation split along ethnic lines: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Ulster_Constabulary https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Ulster_Constabulary Infiltration of various groups by police with the sole purpose of surveilling and disrupting their activities: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/15/undercover-police-spies-infiltrated-uk-leftwing-groups-for-decades https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/15/undercover-p... Mass surveillance by GCHQ as documented by Snowden: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosures_(2013%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosure... Rendition without trial (aka kidnapping) and torture: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/22/uk-support-cia-rendition-flights https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/22/uk-support-cia... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisone... London is the most surveiled city outside China: https://www.verdict.co.uk/most-surveilled-city/ https://www.verdict.co.uk/most-surveilled-city/ And last but not least, the Metropolitan Police is full of creeps, rapists and murderers: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58747614 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58747614 https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/28/met-police-placed-special-measures-series-scandals https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/28/met-police-p... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/22/fourth-officer-allegedly-fathered-child-after-meeting-woman-undercover https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/22/fourth-offic... ... OK, one more, I give you.. indefinite prison sentences: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/sep/28/call-to-resentence-3000-prisoners-trapped-under-indefinite-jail-terms https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/sep/28/call-to-rese... Edit: The pattern I'd identify throughout 200 years of our history is that we regularly "clamp down" on groups that are no threat (eg, Catholics, Irish people, and today Muslims) and radicals of any kind who wanted stuff like the vote, or socialised healthcare, or a decent environment. The pattern may well span longer, but I can definitely pick it up during that time. I don't think it is even a matter of national character, either: it is a function of how our politics works. We have two viable parties of government, and they don't contest certain things, including authoritarian policymaking.
- ThisIsNotNew 3y ago
  Funny you say that because I know someone who picked Manchester after moving to UK from HK because he and his dad support Manchester United. He moved along with his brother, sister and retired parents, all under the HK visa. They are looking to buy two homes in Manc with their in savings. The newspapers are suggesting the new migrant stats to be published soon by Home Office for past 12 months will show extremely high numbers from both Hong Kong and Ukraine. To be honest I'm surprised people from Hong Kong didn't pick Australia instead of UK given it's better weather and bigger homes/roads compared to cramped England.
  - charlieyu1 3y ago
    You could apply for a British National Overseas (BNO) passport if you were born before 1997, and since 2021 one could stay in UK with BNO. For many people it is the easiest way to leave Hong Kong. Most places are much stricter, my friends going to Australia are going back to studying to apply for a student visa. The policy is not without flaws though, the youngest BNO holders are now 26, immigration policy that focus on older generation is much harder to work. The 12-18 year olds are having a hard time as well, a 6 year stay is required before you could go to university with home fee, and no home fee basically means no university for many families.
    - dukeyukey 3y ago
      My undersntanding is that a BNO holder can bring their dependent family members with them which might help a bit. But yeah, it must be sucky to be a young pro-democracy camp Hongkonger with parents either explicitly pro-Beijing or at least uninterested in leaving.
  - dukeyukey 3y ago
    > I'm surprised people from Hong Kong didn't pick Australia instead of UK My understanding is that the UK has the pretty generous BNO visa with immediate working rights and a path to citizenship, while Australia has an enhanced post-graduation pathway. THe first is much easier and more flexible.

by hkt 3y ago

charlieyu1 3y ago

I’m a Hongkonger. The only thing I know about UK before moving to there is the Queen, and Manchester United. I’m curious of what British politics like in general. Like, I’m absolutely against invasive surveillance, but I associate it more with communist China and its authoritarian bullshit.

hkt 3y ago
It is deeply authoritarian from Labour and the Conservatives. During the Troubles (eg, the Irish Republican Army bombing the UK and their opposite numbers in Northern Ireland doing the same) we practiced internment - eg mass incarceration without charge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius We also routinely convicted people on flimsy charges, this being the most notorious case: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six A notoriously brutal policing operation split along ethnic lines: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Ulster_Constabulary https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Ulster_Constabulary Infiltration of various groups by police with the sole purpose of surveilling and disrupting their activities: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/15/undercover-police-spies-infiltrated-uk-leftwing-groups-for-decades https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/15/undercover-p... Mass surveillance by GCHQ as documented by Snowden: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosures_(2013%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosure... Rendition without trial (aka kidnapping) and torture: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/22/uk-support-cia-rendition-flights https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/22/uk-support-cia... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisone... London is the most surveiled city outside China: https://www.verdict.co.uk/most-surveilled-city/ https://www.verdict.co.uk/most-surveilled-city/ And last but not least, the Metropolitan Police is full of creeps, rapists and murderers: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58747614 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58747614 https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/28/met-police-placed-special-measures-series-scandals https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/28/met-police-p... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/22/fourth-officer-allegedly-fathered-child-after-meeting-woman-undercover https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/22/fourth-offic... ... OK, one more, I give you.. indefinite prison sentences: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/sep/28/call-to-resentence-3000-prisoners-trapped-under-indefinite-jail-terms https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/sep/28/call-to-rese... Edit: The pattern I'd identify throughout 200 years of our history is that we regularly "clamp down" on groups that are no threat (eg, Catholics, Irish people, and today Muslims) and radicals of any kind who wanted stuff like the vote, or socialised healthcare, or a decent environment. The pattern may well span longer, but I can definitely pick it up during that time. I don't think it is even a matter of national character, either: it is a function of how our politics works. We have two viable parties of government, and they don't contest certain things, including authoritarian policymaking.
ThisIsNotNew 3y ago
Funny you say that because I know someone who picked Manchester after moving to UK from HK because he and his dad support Manchester United. He moved along with his brother, sister and retired parents, all under the HK visa. They are looking to buy two homes in Manc with their in savings. The newspapers are suggesting the new migrant stats to be published soon by Home Office for past 12 months will show extremely high numbers from both Hong Kong and Ukraine. To be honest I'm surprised people from Hong Kong didn't pick Australia instead of UK given it's better weather and bigger homes/roads compared to cramped England.
- charlieyu1 3y ago
  You could apply for a British National Overseas (BNO) passport if you were born before 1997, and since 2021 one could stay in UK with BNO. For many people it is the easiest way to leave Hong Kong. Most places are much stricter, my friends going to Australia are going back to studying to apply for a student visa. The policy is not without flaws though, the youngest BNO holders are now 26, immigration policy that focus on older generation is much harder to work. The 12-18 year olds are having a hard time as well, a 6 year stay is required before you could go to university with home fee, and no home fee basically means no university for many families.
  - dukeyukey 3y ago
    My undersntanding is that a BNO holder can bring their dependent family members with them which might help a bit. But yeah, it must be sucky to be a young pro-democracy camp Hongkonger with parents either explicitly pro-Beijing or at least uninterested in leaving.
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  > I'm surprised people from Hong Kong didn't pick Australia instead of UK My understanding is that the UK has the pretty generous BNO visa with immediate working rights and a path to citizenship, while Australia has an enhanced post-graduation pathway. THe first is much easier and more flexible.